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Paul Moist has no ideas
Paul Moist has no ideas
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| wm pasz |
Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:24 pm
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Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto |
CP - are you telling us that the place was shut down for 3 months because nobody told Shipley and his pals that the government is not their friend? They really believed that McGuinty was going to shove their pricey wish list down the throat of a public institution that is funded (partially) from provincial tax revenues? Now that is a new one on me. LMAO!
There was no doubt in my mind that these guys were surface bargaining. That was obvious from their own communications. When your shopping list is pretty much the same at the beginning of a strike as it was at the beginning of negotiations, you're obviously not trying very hard. But I figured that this was just the product of naivete about the bargaining process. But good gawd - if these guys really believed that McGuinty was going to legislate their demands for them, well, pass that bong over this way. They were amazingly naive. How did they suppose that this was going to happen? Was the legislature going to sit down and draft a collective agreement? Did anyone ever tell them it doesn't work that way? These are university students - graduate students. A little bit of simple research would have told them that what they would get from the gov is back-to-work legislation and at date with an arbitrator who would not, under any circumstances award them something that (a) their employer couldn't afford, and (b) would encourage other unions to make similar demands. But I guess that's the problem when you've got your head fixed firmly around an ideology and its attendant theories. You can theorize your way to any conclusion, no matter how ridiculous. (Shipley's invitation to the students and administrative staff to just walk out in support of his and his friends' goals, shows how disconnected he is from the majority of people in this community. That's not ever goign to happen. Nobody has any desire to do anything like that, including the leaders of the other unions.) The neo-lilberal conspiracy theory is tempting I have to admit but, like most conspiracy theories, it falls apart when you when you look at what's really going on. As I said earlier, YU's problems have nothing to do with neo-liberalism. _________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X |
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| SharynS |
Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 3:54 pm
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2883 Location: the 'puter |
Quote: Would you at least agree that... ... is somewhat democratic? Quote: They really believed that McGuinty was going to shove their pricey wish list down the throat of a public institution You can never have too much system exposure, so I suppose it wasn't all for not. _________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
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| Cupe Doll |
Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:22 pm
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 69 Location: Toronto |
Quote: But good gawd - if these guys really believed that McGuinty was going to legislate their demands for them, well, pass that bong over this way. Indeed. And despite the show of unilateral support from other locals and unions -- and from Hampton's NDP -- our strike did great violence to the entire labour movement (at least) in Ontario. If, hypothetically, Hampton's NDP had formed the government at that time? There can be no doubt they too would have legislated us back to work. Here's what I wrote right after the strike: Quote: As non-essential workers legislated back to work, we 3903s are responsible for a BTWL precedent getting established that could be used against future locals. Despite future locals bargaining in good faith -- if the appearance of deadlock should arise? Those future locals might get legislated back to work just like we did.
How's that strike as a blow against the Ontario labour movement? Even though we didn't mean it -- you have to admire any blow so tremendously struck. And there's no avoiding it. We were going to challenge and obtain injunction against BTWL -- on false grounds only York was deadlocked while we were ever ready & eager to bargain. Then we changed our minds -- due to grave alleged concerns with our students' welfare. The truth, though? Quite clearly stated in our January 28 3903 Strike News: "We have been advised by our legal counsel that seeking an injunction to prevent the passage of back-to-work legislation is not the best use of our time, resources, and talents." Meaning we've got no case. Like, how impressed could a judge be hearing how we bragged and made t-shirts about demanding the impossible; how we refused to let our bargaining team bargain; how, just prior BTWL, we had decided to return to our pre-strike November 5 impossible demands? Everything designed not to compromise towards the best possible deal for our own membership -- but to roll back the "neo-liberal" university. To cripple York. Don't go believing we're finished. Don't go thinking our ideology has been compromised by BTWL. As declared by our Stewards' Council in our February 2 3903 News: "It is important that the mobilization that took place during the strike can be sustained and built upon, for the sustenance of our union. We may have lost this particular battle, but the class war is far from over." |
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| wm pasz |
Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:07 pm
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Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto |
"We have been advised by our legal counsel that seeking an injunction to prevent the passage of back-to-work legislation is not the best use of our time, resources, and talents." Translation: "Our lawyer says s/he does not wish to be a laughing stock at the next meeting of the law society."
This neo-liberal conspiracy theory stuff has got me thinking. I don't dispute that it has had an effect on our society but the effect has not crept into institutional life to the extent that these guys believe (if at all). I mean, let's ask ourselves this question: If YU has become such a bastion of neo-liberalism - - Why did we just create the largest Faculty of Liberal Arts on the planet? - Why does the number of people employed here continue to grow? - Why have salaries continued to increase year over year? - Why have there been no reductions in benefits? - Why has there been no significant effort to downsize the workforce? - Why has the bureaucracy (numbers of people employed in positions not directly teaching students) continued to grow? - Why is the bulk of our research continue to have no direct commercial application? Maybe it's so darned insidious that it's here all around us and we just don't see it? Or maybe these guys need to go back and retake Modes of Reasoning? _________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X |
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| SharynS |
Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 9:29 pm
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2883 Location: the 'puter |
...and back at the farm life goes on. Subject only to the prevailing winds.
I'm teetering between nausea and comedic relief. All in all it's sort of like finding another lump after being diagnosed with terminal cancer. Sure it may dash a lingering hope or two but overall it affects not much else. Quote: ...hypothetically, Hampton's NDP had formed the government at that time? Quote: our strike did great violence to the entire labour movement Time to think forward. People are People, we are not labour! It's even plausible these public displays of institutional idiocy could be a momentum in that direction, who knows. The labour landscape has become little more than the feeding grounds for scavengers so, so long labour movement, thanks for the memories. _________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
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| Cupe Doll |
Posted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:10 pm
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 69 Location: Toronto |
wm pasz wrote: .. maybe these guys need to go back and retake Modes of Reasoning? Lmao.. wouldn't do any good, WMP. We're the ones teaching it... |
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| Cupe Doll |
Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:44 am
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 69 Location: Toronto |
SharynS wrote: People are People, we are not labour! It's even plausible these public displays of institutional idiocy could be a momentum in that direction, who knows. The labour landscape has become little more than the feeding grounds for scavengers so, so long labour movement, thanks for the memories. Surprised to hear you say that, SharynS. Had impressions you were into organized labour as essential to protect the little people. The little guy. |
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| SharynS |
Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:17 am
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2883 Location: the 'puter |
I see TShipley registered. Hopefully he's here to add to the discussion so I'll make this short and sweet CD. Quote: Surprised... _________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
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| Cupe Doll |
Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:14 am
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 69 Location: Toronto |
SharynS wrote: I see TShipley registered. Hopefully he's here to add to the discussion Now that should be interesting. Quote: In it's purest form I support the right for all people to unite to progress a cause. Lol. Any cause? |
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| SharynS |
Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:43 am
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2883 Location: the 'puter |
Yes, the right to unite for any cause. The alternative would be rights determined by cause, which, if you think about it, is sort of the direction it's going.
_________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
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| Cupe Doll |
Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:09 am
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 69 Location: Toronto |
Well, maybe not rights determined by cause. Maybe rights abolished when a cause is sufficiently harmful.
Hard for it not to go that way at least somewhat if the cause is, say, criminal activity. Right? Uniting in a criminal cause would be conspiracy. And it gets even worse when the criminal activity is considered to be "organized" crime..... Just thinking out loud -- not disagreeing with you very much here. I'd just qualify your fully general statement a little. Like, people must have the right to do jointly anything they've got the right to do individually... |
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| SharynS |
Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:41 am
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2883 Location: the 'puter |
Any cause, within a legal framework, not necessarily the one that they've got brewing now; bureaucratic layers burying joint efforts.
Back to the point, do my answers satisfy your question? And what about you? Are you "into organized labour as essential to protect the little people. The little guy. are you for the little guy?" _________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
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| Cupe Doll |
Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:30 pm
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 69 Location: Toronto |
Your answers don't entirely satisfy my questions. Usually I get a clear sense where people are coming from. You keep surprising me though. It's interesting.
And of course I'm for the little guy. I'm just not sure organized labour is (for the little guy). Not from what I've seen. _________________ www.ultimatecultureclash.com |
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| wm pasz |
Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:04 pm
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Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto |
I can't help but dive in...Sharyn and I and various others have been floating around the Internet for the past decade now (eek!) promoting the cause of union democracy (and by extension, a more humane, democratized social order) on this site as well as its predecessor (archived at www.m-f-d.org). You can get a sense of where we're at by reading the About Us section of both sites, as well as the articles, news items, etc.
While there are many differing views as to what needs to be done in terms of empowering working people and the current state of what is called "organized labour", my own views are like this - The "labour movement" in North America essentially evaporated when unions were institutionalized through the legal framework that was adopted in the US in the 1930's and in Canada in the 1940's. This framework had some real benefits for organized labour but was dependent on the cooperation of employers and the state both of which played ball for a couple of decades but then opted out of the deal starting in the 1970's (due to the influence of neo-liberalism - see, I do believe it's real). Leaders of unions representing private sector workers dropped the ball completely in terms of responding to this sea change (most were ideologically in the same camp as the employers). In the public sector, union leaders watched the whole thing unfold with an air of detachment, lamenting about the unfairness of it all but deferring to their private sector colleagues on what to do in response and going about their business in the public institutions where the labour relations playing field was a lot more stable. In the years that followed, organized labour fragmented into what I see as 4 or 5 distinct groups of unions, all of which have evolved their own internal culture, philosophies of unionism, relations with members and approaches to relations with employers. - Professional associations (where membership is restricted to a specific professional occupation such as teachers, police, fire fighters, university faculty members, etc.) - Public sector unions (membership includes a range of occupations in a public or broader public service institution). - Traditional industrial unions (a range of occupations in traditional unionized private sector enterprises - CAW, USWA, Teamsters are examples) - Corporate appendage unions (unions that are closely allied with employers and help them manage their business by managing the membership - the UFCW is an example) - Criminal associates (unions or, more commonly, locals of unions that are under the control of or exploited by criminal organizations). Among these groups there is little cooperation and only thin pretenses at solidarity. Outcomes for members vary widely among these groups (really awful within the criminal associations, pretty bad within the corporate appendages, the industrial unions have ceded a lot of ground although put up a fight, public sector unions have done reasonably well and professional associations have done better than that). My point and that of many people who come here to participate in the conversations is that we need to rethink how working people can become empowered (my views on this are captured in this brief article Change the Workplace Order and the Social Order Will Follow BTW, I couldn't help but catch the reference in the more recent posts to organized crime. Our experience has been that in Canada, organized criminals are indeed free to unite, organize and pursue their objectives (which include robbing workers) with impunity. Too bad the rest of us face a dizzying array of hurdles - many of them institutional - in our efforts to unite and pursue our goals. _________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X |
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| wm pasz |
Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:52 pm
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Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto |
Hmmm....where'd Cupe Doll get to? Damn, I hope I didn't scare her/him off with all that radical talk about democracy. Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.
_________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X |
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