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Paul Moist has no ideas
Paul Moist has no ideas
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| SharynS |
Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:15 pm
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2940 Location: the 'puter |
Quote: See? We did throw our students into the lion's den. The metaphoric lion's den. The economic lion's den. 
I'm not trying to be ignorant but to understand the situation or to pick one strategy over another it's vital to know what they are. So far I've only read one, with which you obviously disagree but fail to provide a possible alternative for me to consider. It's also vital to have the 'ends' weigh in before picking one strategy over another, which aren't yet available in this case as far as I can tell. Being legislated back to work is more like a catalyst than an end in a labour dispute. So in essense, and to assist me in my quest to unearth your point, the battle rages on so to speak. Now, assuming that you're a fan of human progress v. a fan of corporate progress and, a fan of keeping/winning something for the little guy (please see labour history) I'll put it to you again: How would you have seen this dispute play out differently and to what end? _________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
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| Cupe Doll |
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:41 am
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 69 Location: Toronto |
I'm all for the little guy. But to me that doesn't mean I'm with Labour against Business. To me that means I'm for more genuine democracy against all the big 3. Against Big Labour, Big Business and Big Government. Not that there's much to choose any more between the Big Three. Might as well just say Big Brother.
Yet I'm not even struggling for more genuine democracy. Not any more. Since I think that's hopeless. Hopeless in general -- and beyond hopeless in my local 3903. See? I'm not exactly trying to make things "better". I'm just trying to stop things from being totally doomed. How and why would anything be totally doomed? Well, things get totally doomed whenever we absolutely cannot resolve human conflicts. And when can we absolutely not resolve human conflicts? Well, I argue whenever our differences are not just circumstantial -- since circumstances change day-to-day. I argue it's when we can't reconcile different cultural identities. Since we can't change our cultural identities from one day to the next whenever new evidence comes in. We can't change cultural identities like we do scientific theories. Like old hats. Once conflicts become ideologically entrenched they can only be resolved by one or more cultures being defeated or destroyed. And generally, human conflicts are most fundamentally rooted not in material causes but in cultural reasons. In ideological contradictions. Doesn't matter if ideological deadlock happens in the Middle East -- or at YorkU campus. Once deadlock turns ideological there's no more hoping for peaceful negotiated resolutions. So that's how I'm trying to stop things from being totally doomed. By eliciting the most fundamental cultural contradictions -- then exploring any possible or conceivable resolutions by discourse instead of bullets. That's what I'm designing the UCC (Ultimate Culture Clash -- www.ultimatecultureclash.com) for. Try to stop things from getting so totally doomed. Even if it's already too late. Speaking of which? This exchange is useful. Would you mind if I reproduce it in the comments section @ the UCC? |
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| SharynS |
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:40 am
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2940 Location: the 'puter |
I'm getting dizzy. Quote: I'm just trying to stop things from being totally doomed. Quote: Would you mind if I reproduce it in the comments section _________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
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| Cupe Doll |
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:52 am
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 69 Location: Toronto |
Quote: I'm getting dizzy. Sorry. Not my intention. Quote: Purely subjective, there are those who (may) believe things are "totally doomed" now. Well.. yeah. I'm one of those. |
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| SharynS |
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:29 am
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2940 Location: the 'puter |
Quote: I'm just trying to stop things from being totally doomed. Quote: Quote: Purely subjective, there are those who (may) believe things are "totally doomed" now. Let's say that "stop[ping] things from being totally doomed" was still part of your agenda. It might help if you could tell us, first your definition of "totally doomed" (you can't stop anything if you can't identify it) and then, what you did during the life of the project to accomplish it. At the risk of repeating myself; in specific actions "How would you have seen this dispute play out differently and to what end? " _________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
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| Cupe Doll |
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:48 am
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 69 Location: Toronto |
Quote: We can assume then your project has been scraped? How does that follow? Were I certain everything was doomed, I'd still try to do what's right in principle. But I'm not even certain. And re your question? It really misses my whole point. Which wasn't what we should have done but rather what we shouldn't and wouldn't have done if we weren't so ideologically out of control. We should either have bargained in good faith -- or we should have fought an ideological war. Not both. We should NOT have done the latter while pretending to do the former. Again, though. Given how ideologically out of control we are -- we couldn't have done much substantively different. |
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| SharynS |
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:35 am
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2940 Location: the 'puter |
Quote: How does that follow? I'm obviously not asking the right questions as I cannot seem to make head nor tail of your argument nor find your point. I understand that - in your opinion - hypocrisy ruled these negotiations. Unfortunately you've provided nothing more than opinion to support that that was the case - no source, no evidence. _________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
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| Cupe Doll |
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:38 am
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 69 Location: Toronto |
Quote: First you say you were only trying to "stop things from being totally doomed" and then you say you were "one of those" who believed things were totally doomed already. You tell me how it follows. You can do better than that. What didn't follow was that one would scrap efforts to do what's right just because things are totally doomed. Quote: I understand that - in your opinion - hypocrisy ruled these negotiations. Excellent. Progress. Quote: Unfortunately you've provided nothing more than opinion to support that that was the case - no source, no evidence. Fair enough. Now that you've progressed to acknowledge my point -- it's fair enough to ask proof. But let's just be clear that there's some proving going on right in the article we're commenting. Want me to explain it? |
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| SharynS |
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:07 pm
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2940 Location: the 'puter |
I'm afraid I'll have to pass on the explanation CD. As far as I can tell, "the article" you so fondly cling to is simply an unclaimed opinion piece. A fascinating study for something perhaps but proof of nothing regarding what did or did not go down.
_________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
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| Cupe Doll |
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:43 pm
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 69 Location: Toronto |
Quote: As far as I can tell, "the article" you so fondly cling to is simply an unclaimed opinion piece. It's fine if you can't tell. Don't feel bad. If you'd like me to help you tell -- feel free to ask. I'll be happy to help. |
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| SharynS |
Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:26 pm
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2940 Location: the 'puter |
Oh I don't feel bad at all, not a prob but enough with pissing around. From what little I already knew about the dispute and from what little anyone can garner from your cryptically interspersed opinion piece it's fairly obvious what went on behind the scenes.
In a nutshell: A large number, if not the majority, of 3903 members fell out of trust with CUPE. Either prior to or during the dispute. Endemic corruption can cause a lot of mistrust you know. Anyways, on that note, a large number of 3003 members, if not the majority, decided to take their fate into their own hands. If nothing else, your cryptically interspersed opinion piece does paint a vivid picture of CUPE's head dog Paul Moist's attempt to rein members back into the fold. A little rhetorical hype, a little whining, a little fear mongering.... It didn't work, no-one in the crowd bought into CUPE's hype, except perhaps for you? Am I close? _________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
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| Cupe Doll |
Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:42 am
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 69 Location: Toronto |
I'm not being intentionally cryptic -- and there's no point playing guessing games.
Local 3903 is under CUPE National administration. That's sort of like a collective trial -- or at least a severe spanking. There's a few reasons. Mainly, bunch of money went missing and National is instigating forensic auditing to track down where to. And we're said to be a "dysfunctional" local in other ways. A climate of fear, harassment and bullying. According to (nowhere near only) Paul Moist. Anyhow. Dude was bewildered when he came talking to us. He was like, "Why would you want to pull crap like that?" Had a whole list of examples, too. What I wrote? It wasn't to mention some of his examples again. It was to help him -- and/or anyone else -- stop being bewildered. The reason we 3903s pull the kind of crap we do is because we're ideologically out of control. Got a better theory? Spill. Want to hear more examples than the ones I mentioned Paul Moist mentioning? Ask. Or keep checking http://ultimatecultureclash.com/york-university/behind-the-3903-scene Are you perhaps ideologically out of control yourself? Cool. Welcome to the club. |
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| SharynS |
Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:17 am
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2940 Location: the 'puter |
Quote: Are you perhaps ideologically out of control yourself Back on topic (I use the term loosely) Quote: 3903... ...because we're ideologically out of control _________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
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| Cupe Doll |
Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:52 am
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 69 Location: Toronto |
Quote: Define "ideologically out of control" in your view and then provide examples. Your command is my wish 
In my use of the term, ideology means a false, absurd or irredeemably harmful ideal that keeps sticking around regardless how false, absurd or harmful it is. Ideological is a person who cleaves to such false, absurd or harmful ideals. A person who will not learn. You already know what out of control means, yes? Now here's a metaphoric example from when our strike was a couple weeks young. I'll provide you with real live 3903 examples later -- if you still wish. "Talks between York and striking union break down"? Of course they do. Don't get me wrong. As a contract faculty member at York I'd love some job security. It's worse than medieval how York treats contract faculty. Even back in dark ages, after 10 years' faithful service servants likely received at least some security and recognition from whatever masters they served. Not so at York. Not when it comes to contract faculty. But can this strike help contract faculty? Help anyone? Of course not. This strike can offer no relief except comic. Comic relief. Imagine you're checking out computers at a store. And one computer, price listed $450, catches your eye. So you go to the retail counter and ask to negotiate the price. Because you don't have $450. The counter-clerk agrees to negotiate and asks how much you've got. You reply: "$39.33" The clerk looks you up and down -- then directs you leave the store. And don't come back until you're prepared to negotiate. Since your absurd offer totally contradicts what you asked in the first place. To negotiate that computer you liked. And that's how this strike is. Not about negotiating or anyhow compromising. The sides are so far apart they might as well be babbling different languages. This strike is ideological. I've heard more than once, within 3903, how we'll bring the employer to its knees. And you know what? I can get up for a good fight. Lots of us are eager for the good fight. But if we are to strike any blows against exploitation for workers everywhere -- then let's get clear that's what we're doing. Let's let this exploiter know not to bother with offers -- we won't even try choking them down. This is a matter of principle. We've shut York exploitation down before -- this time we'll do it again and more besides. Otherwise, if not in pursuit of ideals or ideologies, if it's about the best pragmatic interests of the membership here and now -- then let's try negotiating like intelligent life forms. Let's either negotiate that computer reasonably -- or do what needs doing to shut the computer store down. But let's stop contradicting and humiliating ourselves doing both. Let's not be offering $39.33 for anything listed $450. No positive relief can result from humiliating ourselves that way. Nothing but comic relief. |
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| SharynS |
Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:39 pm
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2940 Location: the 'puter |
Attn: Cupe Doll, I agreed that you could use this exchange - quote it if you like, I did not agree nor give you permission to register my name, nor to use my email address to register my name to your site and I certainly did not agree to spam emails.
Again if you want to use quotes from this thread I don't give a damn but remove the fraudulent account asap. _________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
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