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wm pasz	Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2009 11:00 pm
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto	As the tidal wave of home foreclosures continues to sweep across the US, not all home owners are going quietly off into the street. A new web site, Fighting For Our Homes is bringing us the stories of people who are fighting the lenders who conned them into deceptive schemes that they never imagined would cost them the roofs over their heads. Check out their stories and show support. _________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X
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the doc	Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 4:25 pm
Joined: 27 Sep 2006 Posts: 121	Only in the U.S. you say. There is either a lot of stupid people out there, or people that don't know what end is up or down. A dummy buying a home wants to know how much his payments will be now and down the road. I find it very hard to believe these stories of people not knowing how much they were going to pay on the mortgages and now are crying foul. If it were me probably 90% of these people would not qualify for a mortgage to get a home. I am very sorry but this is reality, donot look through rose coloured glasses. If you can't afford it you shouldn't be there it is that simple. In a nice world I would like all to have a home, but it isn't a nice world out there, so reality comes into play. Are the banks at fault to a degree OH YES, but the people have the responsibilty to know what they are getting into. I guess the saying goes if you have to ask about the gas for a caddy, you can't afford it.
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wm pasz	Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:16 pm
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto	It's not quite so simple. See my post about halfway down this thread for a more indepth look at what's happening. _________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X
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the doc	Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:23 pm
Joined: 27 Sep 2006 Posts: 121	I'm sorry but I just can't get my head around people that can't afford a home being in one. There was a piece on tv the other night about a mother with a kid you lost her job LAST AUG. and owes $23,000 in back payments. She might lose her house, except she is hoping Obama's mortgage break will protect her. If she doesn't have a job and can't pay the bills how can you stay in that house? Don't get my wrong I think that the U.S. money system stinks, and they think their shit don't stink. They have more poverty in that country than others do, and they critize other countries. I say clean up your own mess first then you have the right to have a say on the rest of the world. Big business in the States is out for nobody but itself and it does not give a hoot about the government or the people, just the almight buck. The only thing that is going to help in this mess and remember the States started this mess around the world is for the Government to slap them silly with rules and then make them stick. A few more CEO's in jail won't hurt either. The problem is the people allways pay the price, big business just stands there with their hands out, then go merrily on their way.
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atuuschaaw	Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:12 pm
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 780 Location: an ahwangan	the doc wrote: I'm sorry but I just can't get my head around people that can't afford a home being in one. Apparently you aren't the only one, because a quick trip around practically any metropolitan area down south and you will see entire families living in their vehicles. That's if they are lucky enough to still have a vehicle. There are scores of others who are staying in shelters made of what they can scrape up from tossed items around town. But what the hell...home is where the heart is anyway...right? I guess they get what they can afford eh? _________________ "Speaking the truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." George Orwell
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the doc	Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:38 pm
Joined: 27 Sep 2006 Posts: 121	I have to go back into the 50's and 60's in Hamilton Ont. where I am from. Then it was almost a joke that italian families were crammed into one house. You might find 2 families with kids living in one house. The catch was they all pitched in with the costs and saved like hell so they could break out on their own and almost buy there own home for total cash. A dumb way to get started, I don't think so, but we sort of laughed back then, until the italian families were buying all the houses. When I look back it was not such a bad idea, they helped each other get ahead, and they helped each other in marriages also. I loved their tenacity to get ahead and do what they had to do to get what a lot of other people took for granted. Today, too many people take it for granted that they should have a home just because they are "owed". Well I have news for everybody, nobody owes you anything, if you want it work your butt off like a lot of people did before you to save the money to get a home. There are a lot of people caught up in this forecloser thing that should not have been where they were, this is a fact. Do I want to see anybody lose their home NO, but sometimes we just have to face facts and say just maybe, just maybe it was not to be at this time, dirty business aside.
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exraleys	Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:20 pm
Joined: 21 Mar 2006 Posts: 193	Here in Calif,Obama will not be able to help because the foolish buyers of the Northern Calif market , not only over paid for the homes, but took money out , too.No way are the homeowners going to get anywhere close to meeting the requirements in Obama's plan. I'm truely sorry for those that are going to loose their homes.But, their pain is also being suffered by those that did not act in a reckless manner. I for one did not over borrow, even when I was told I qualified for $200,000 more than I borrowed. Just because I could , did'nt mean that it was smart. My pain is, my invested money has taken a major haircut and because of that I must live a reduced lifestyle until I can recover what has been lost. What happened? and who was responsible? The government said lend to everyone,(even those that should'nt have money leant to them) The loan originators , ie. any idiot that wanted to get in the game for the high fee's and was not regulated by anyone, the banks that funded the loan, including Wachovia , with it's pick a payment plan , that was the zenith of idiocy. Te securitization of the bundled loans in different tranches of risk and then the big brokers selling CDO's against these loans and reaping big fee's.There is plenty of blame to go around...... But..... getting back to the homeowners, they want relief because the rules have change. The home borrowers did not complain when the prices went up,and they pulled the money out of the home and spent it on crap, all the while thinking home values would go to the moon. Now , when the prices go the other way they don't believe in capitalism,and look to blame anyone , but themselves. I hope that these homeowners crap their pants when they see the 1099A ( home abandonment) or 1099C ( cancelation of debt) and realize that they need to pay income tax on that amount. In our tax system, there is no free lunch, except in Obama world, it's all KUM-BI-YA. Obama's 75 billion dollar plan is about 2 Trillion dollars short!!!!!
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wm pasz	Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:23 pm
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto	There's quite a big difference between those Italian immigrants of the mid 20th century and the people who are losing their homes all across the US today. The immigrants (not just Italians but other ethnic groups that came over at about the same time) had opportunities that today's average citizen doesn't. Jobs were plentiful (that's why they came here in the first place) and paid reasonably well thanks to well-established unions. Yes, the work was physically demanding (particularly in the construction industry where most of the Italian new comers ended up) and the unions were corrupt but the wages were good and the work was steady. There were decent benefits and, starting in 1964, government-funded health care. For those who had ambitions beyond earning a wage, there were opportunities to set up small and mid-sized businesses. Many did just that and, in a healthy economy, these businesses were able to thrive. Living two or three families to a house wasn't that bad. These were people who were used to communal living arrangements, where extended families lived under one roof. The houses were nicer than what they had left behind in the old country and it was understood that this was a temporary arrangement while each family saved for a home of their own. These arrangements were actually a good thing because they prevented isolation and helped form a sense of community and bonds that would last a life time. They also had their own identity - and this is an important factor - they had not been bombarded, since childhood with images of plastic people who they tried to emulate. Their values were not about money and having a bunch of stuff but were focussed on family, community and faith. When it came to buying a house, houses were affordable. A guy making a decent income working in construction could support a wife and family and save up for a downpayment within a few years (some even saved enough to buy their homes outright). Mortgages were not that easy to get (25% down was the rule I believe) but could be paid off in a reasonable time. Now for something really important: Not only were houses affordable but the entire financial industry wasn't chasing after these people with offers of easy credit, low "teaser" interest rates and a dizzying cloud of fine print that basically allowed them to boost your rate into the stratosphere for the sole purpose of being able to take your house away. When people signed on the dotted line they knew exactly what they were getting into, what their payments would be and when they would have their mortgages paid off. There were no surprises or sleight of hand. With a stable economy, increasing wages and enhanced benefits (and of course, free health care), these people were able to pay off their mortgages and enjoy a good standard of living. Now, contrast that with the generations that are currently facing the baillif's knock across the US. You have people who have grown up in a culture of consumption. You are what you buy. Your identity is consumer. You should aspire to be like the plastic people on television. There are no connections to any other kind of culture. Owing a home is what separates winners from losers. You must own a home. Even the president says you must. The financial industry hounds you with offers that you can't resist. Being in debt has become just another part of life - you're up to your ears by the time you finish school . Decent jobs are drying up, the economy is in a tailspin. There are no more affordable homes. Living two or three families to a house is prohibited in many areas. Few jobs pay a decent wage. The cost of everything keeps going up. Connections to community, family or spiritual values are tenuous or non-existant (who has time for that stuff when you're busy juggling bills). Any emergency like a health issue for instance leaves you no alternative but to mortgage your house. People get in debt because they're vulnerable and get conned into it or because they have no other options. Look at it this way: Loansharking is a criminal offense right? Why is that? People don't get led at gun point to the neighborhood loan shark and forced to borrow money on ridiculous terms. They should know better, shouldn't they? They should go to a bank or save up the money they need and stay away from unsavory characters who are just going to exploit them, or worse. Why should we bother arresting loan sharks, prosecuting them and paying to put them up in prison when, really, they're just doing business with people who should know better. Well, there are a number of reasons why we shouldn't and haven't decriminalized loan sharking. First of all loan sharks prey on the vulnerable. They exploit people who are desperate and don't have any options. Sometimes these people have addictions which are created or fueled by other crooks. They mislead people and engage in deceptive business practices. Ultimately, these practices drive their customers to crime, violence and other destructive acts that hurt themselves and their families. If we allow this to get out of control, the entire social fabric may begin to unravel. And that's where we're headed now with the legalized loansharking that has been permitted in the financial services industry. The problems they have created are so big and the fallout so potentially destructive that the time for finger-wagging at the victims has long since passed. With 2.3 million foreclosures last year and 10,000 in the past month alone, jobs disappearing at an alarming rate (598,000 last month!), inaccessible health care and the list goes on and on, what are people going to do? Are they going to live in the streets while millions of houses sit vacant waiting for non-existent buyers? And the idea of paying taxes on foreclosed properties and abandoned debts - please, you can't get blood from a rock. Besides, it would pain me to pay taxes to a government that's going to take my money and give it back to the vultures and crooks who gave us all this. (I think that during the Vietnam war, people in the anti-war movement held back some of their taxes - whatever proportion they believed would be diverted towards funding the war - in protest. Might be worth doing again.). We are never going to return to that 1950's and 1960's era where corporations paid decent wages while single-mindedly pursuing profit. Capitalism isn't going to raise all boats (it's actually sinking all boats). These myths have now been so thoroughly discredited that I'm surprised that anyone continues to have faith in the mythical economic theories that supported them. This is huge crisis that will require radical rethinking of a lot of things before it's fixed. _________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X
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the doc	Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:45 pm
Joined: 27 Sep 2006 Posts: 121	wm. good points, but I still feel that it is the people themselves who are 50% to blame here. I don't care if the president says you are owed a home or not, if you can't afford it the answer is no. Do I blame the financial industry for 50% of this mess you bet. Somebody working p/t at Macdonalds cannot afford a $250,000 house, and if they can't see that then we are all doomed. If I am working at the same job and have that income, I am able to see what I can afford and what I can't,there is just no way anybody can't see this. We can make excuses all day long and blame all out there, but it still comes down to common sense. I used the italian anology simply to say you must save up for what ever you want, god I did for my first house. Today credit is to easy to get and many are in over their heads, including businesess. They borrow and borrow until something happens and then they blame the rest of the world and not themselves. What happens when you are house poor and this is not just in the states but right here in Canada, and the car needs a new engine or the furnace blows up. They reach for the handy credit card, that they can't even pay off anymore. We need to go back to the basics and teach the people coming behind us the right way to live and save, and to put money aside for the future. Is it hard, damn right but until then we are going to be going around in circles. People just have to learn that because you want it doesnot mean you can have it. Would I like a Lamborginni yes can I afford it no. Does that mean I will never have one NO, I just might be able to save for it one day, but I can still dream. That's what we did when we were young we dreamed of what we wanted, but bought what we could afford. There is a big difference between the two, and a big difference in the bottom line.
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wm pasz	Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:52 pm
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto	I completely agree. I have to say I'm shocked at the ridiculous lifestyles that people try to maintain - even those are making a decent salary. But because the lenders are 50% responsible (at least) I don't think that they should be lining up cap in hand now looking for public money to cover their losses or behaving the way they might if they had made prudent lending decisions to begin with. If you lend to someone without checking their income (some of these lenders were actually loaning money without doing that) or knowing that the person is going to default, then you should take your lumps when these people default. I think that these unscrupulous lenders should be forced to work out terms that the borrowers can afford. They should go back to the original interest rates that were in effect when these borrowers first signed on and if it means they're going to have a wait a lot longer to recoup on these loans well so be it. Alternatively, the government should step in, take over the loans and borrowing arrangements in a way that allows people to stay in their homes, pay down their debts and keep up their neighbourhoods. If the state is going to put up the money to fix this problem, the state might as well operate the lending program and that way at least the money that comes back belongs to the people. Maybe there's a way of doing this where the money goes to a community fund that also encourages local enterprise and alternative economic activity. This whole thing is such a mess it's going to take something unusual to solve it. _________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X
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rogead	Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:39 am
Joined: 11 Feb 2006 Posts: 412	There's a movement beginning to take root, in which homeowners are forcing banks to provide the original signed mortgage document. Given that the original mortgage document was often packaged as an "investment opportunity"(a significant factor in the mortgage crisis), these documents are frequently almost impossible to track down. At a minimum, this tactic can give a homeowner extra time...often months extra...to come up with a mortgage payment Quote: Homeowners around the country are managing to fend off foreclosure by employing a strategy that goes to the heart of the real estate mess. By asking banks to show the original mortgage paperwork, foreclosure proceedings often come to a standstill. http://xrl.us/behf8z
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wm pasz	Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:45 pm
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto	Thanks for posting that rogead. I've heard that people have also been successful in fighting collection agencies and credit card companies by using a similar strategy: If the creditor can't prove that the debt is owed to them (ie., can't produce the documents), TFB for them. It's surprising that the record keeping is as shoddy as it is. In the frenzy of lending and gouging it seems that paperwork went down black holes. I don't feel the least bit sorry for any of them. _________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X
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wm pasz	Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:17 pm
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto	The Huffington Post now has a section called Dispatches from the Displaced where people who have lost their homes courtesy of the financial industry can share their stories. Worth checking out. I don't see any fast-living, high-flying, big spenders here. Just people who thought they were doing all the right things. Another good article about the subprime meltdown. There aren't enough jail cells to accommodate the crooks who should be thrown into them. _________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X
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SharynS	Posted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:23 pm
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2883 Location: the 'puter	Quote: ...I lost everything after working for 21 years to build my piece of the American dream quite literally by 'pulling myself up with my bootstraps'.... ...I'm pushing 60. Had I known this was the final outcome, I would not have started out to chase the dream. The hard way to learn that dreams are for dreamers. _________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie
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rogead	Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:10 am
Joined: 11 Feb 2006 Posts: 412	There is also a form of direct action being utilized to stop foreclosures across the country. Activists have been able to “convince” Sheriff Tom Dart of Cook County (Chicago), Illinois; and Sheriff Warren Evans of Wayne County (Detroit), Michigan to stop the enforcement of home foreclosures in their respective counties. On the US House floor, Ohio Congresswoman Marcy Kaptur recently said: Quote: I say to the American people, you be squatters in your own homes. Don’t you leave I’ll be meeting up with a large number of like-minded folks at Minneapolis City Hall next Wednesday to confront Hennepin County Sheriff Rick Stanek concerning a planned foreclosure auction. The idea is to flood the auction site with protesters…in an effort to prevent the sales from proceeding. Many of the groups involved in this action are national, so I suspect that similar things are going on across the country.
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