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The Game Plan

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Pearson	Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:06 pm
Joined: 03 Feb 2006 Posts: 1417 Location: Sun City AZ	In a letter to California UFCW members posted in this thread http://forums.uncharted.ca/about367-0-asc-15.html&sid=2c8d92278b609d1b90e8a9125d4d5993, we saw the announcment the UFCW has a Game Plan. That's a good thing, because three years ago their Sothern CA strike looked like a clusterfuck gone bad. Many of us knew Dority just wanted out, but to leave with members on the street would look tacky. Besides, he wanted the half million dollar bonus and to take it while members were starving and on strike just wasn't cool. Waiting the appropriate 60 days before taking the money and running was far more genteel; showing what good taste (for the members money) he had. Now we see Joe Hansen and the boys assembled and ready to take back what was lost three years ago. God, i got excited just reading the letter; it sounded so manly. Hell, i started humming that old song Macho Man; i began envisioning various UFCW leaders dressed as the Village People. But i digress. In this thread http://forums.uncharted.ca/about379.html from unionnow we read where defined benefit pension plans are under attack. In this thread http://forums.uncharted.ca/about335.html we see where chief spokeperson for the CTW, Andrew Stern, has proclaimed employer health care as a dead issue. Is there an overriding theme in these comments? Is there more to the Game Plan than is being spoken. Most of us who have been around or inside the UFCW have seen how the boys work. Spin doctoring is a way of life, and the message is too often contained in not what is being said, but what is not being said. I do believe it is time to have a straight up conversation about the possibility of creating a website dedicated to all UFCW contract negotiations. Open forumed and filled with tips, strategies and opportunities for members to sound off and question their leaders would be something you will not see from the boys anytime soon. I know this has problems aplenty attached to it, so let me hear your reasons for and against it. _________________ If we don't do it, who will?
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Plutodog	Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:12 pm
Joined: 06 Feb 2006 Posts: 300 Location: Oregon	Bill, why not simply have a segment of this site dedicated strictly to the negotiations? Up side would be to expose folks to all the other info and opportunity to talk about it at uncharted? Downside??? _________________ "I'm not a humanitarian,I'm a hell-raiser" -- Mother Jones
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loonietunes	Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:39 pm
Joined: 30 Mar 2006 Posts: 1210	Pearson wrote: Is there an overriding theme in these comments? Is there more to the Game Plan than is being spoken. Most of us who have been around or inside the UFCW have seen how the boys work. Spin doctoring is a way of life, and the message is too often contained in not what is being said, but what is not being said. I do believe it is time to have a straight up conversation about the possibility of creating a website dedicated to all UFCW contract negotiations. Open forumed and filled with tips, strategies and opportunities for members to sound off and question their leaders would be something you will not see from the boys anytime soon. BP--I agree with you 100% --but I also agree with plutodog about finding a home for it right here in UNCHARTED--- --I think it is so important that people bring forward what they are hearing--even when its hard or impossible to verify. Bill you and I and many others know that lots of times you can't verify things--it simply isn't that easy -- possible-or black and white--but many times information that is picked up on the "grapevine" turns out to be the absolute truth. Now--I realize that there are legal issues to work out and UNCHARTED has to be on its toes because UFCW would love to shout us down--- --Having said this--I just can't see how simply passing along "grapevine" information or posting published photos gets us in trouble-- Am I missing something BP? LT
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Laboryes	Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 3:16 pm
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1967	Quote: I know this has problems aplenty attached to it, so let me hear your reasons for and against it BP you and I have discussed this issue many times and while I agree that a web site for this purpose would be a good idea there has been questions that I never got answers to such as........ Who would moderate this site? Would everyone pitch in for the cost to build the site? What name or names would the domain be registered under? Ultimately who be responsible for the content on the web site? The person or persons moderating this web site would have to have good puter skills in case of problems. I would contribute to cost of getting a site like this up for sure! I say we do this but we do it as a group!(uncharted regulars) If we could build the site that would pull in the less radical members one that they felt comfortable logging into and posting on just maybe we could teach the less radical to be a little more radical when it came to fighting for their futures! That's why I would be for it. I have found in my area people tend to see me as being a bit radical and that tends to scare off our more timid members that lean to the right some. It would be good to come up with something that masses would flock to. _________________ "When people refuse to obey, then democracy comes alive." Howard Zinn Last edited by Laboryes on Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:01 pm; edited 2 times in total
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wm pasz	Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 3:50 pm
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto	The first question that I think you need to answer is: Do you know someone who has the skills to build you a web site and to maintain it for you (and who will be reliable enough so that you can be sure that he or she will be there when you need them)? One of the things that will be really important to you is that the site is working properly, information is easy to access and - if you've got a discussion board - it's easy to use and you have a moderator keeping an eye on things most of the time. People who visit your site for the first time and find that links don't work or they have trouble logging in to the discussion board are more likely to leave and not come back than they are to be patient. If you don't know anyone who is willing to do this for you for free, find out roughly what it will cost you to hire someone to build and maintain your site. If it's affordable, then you may be able to do it. If it's not affordable you'll have to look at other options. _________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X
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unionnow	Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:20 pm
Joined: 05 Feb 2006 Posts: 695 Location: Gettin the Hell out of retail	Quote: Now we see Joe Hansen and the boys assembled and ready to take back what was lost three years ago. God, i got excited just reading the letter; it sounded so manly. Bill, This is just a bunch of BS spouted by the boys who are under pressure from some UFCW presidents to change their ways. They are not mobilizing anything and the International already knows what the company wants. The big consessions have already happened. Its a big secret but we are on top of it and we will have hard copy evidence soon. It will be posted on uncarted within the next two weeks. Its pure hogwash, dont be fooled by it. _________________ “The burden against Damascus. ‘Behold, Damascus will cease from being a city, and it will be a ruinous heap. (Isaiah 17:1-2)
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Pearson	Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:36 pm
Joined: 03 Feb 2006 Posts: 1417 Location: Sun City AZ	Quote: Its pure hogwash, don't be fooled by it. Hope you weren't taking me seriously Un. I thought maybe the Village People connection would be a dead giveaway...though i still get jizzed when i hear YMCA and can do the hand and arm gestures. I agree with you, this whole scenario, IMHO, is locked and loaded. The beauty of establishing a site to analyze the show would just be their worst nightmare. Nothing worse than having us tell members what is going to happen before it does. Credibility becomes a real issue at that point. Quote: If you don't know anyone who is willing to do this for you for free, find out roughly what it will cost you to hire someone to build and maintain your site. If it's affordable, then you may be able to do it. If it's not affordable you'll have to look at other options. Ya scared the snot out of me with that one wmp. I know we could raise some money to put this together but it would be far better if we could work from an existing site. Quote: --but I also agree with plutodog about finding a home for it right here in UNCHARTED--- I thought it would be way forward for me to suggest such an imposition; however if they offered i wouldn't turn it down. The only problem is the way the UFCW will try and paint the site as an anti-union effort. In reality we will be a pro-member project with a goal of giving members the voice the UFCW will deny them. _________________ If we don't do it, who will?
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Elvis	Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 6:00 pm
Joined: 01 Feb 2006 Posts: 661 Location: Toronto	Pearson wrote: I thought it would be way forward for me to suggest such an imposition; however if they offered i wouldn't turn it down. The only problem is the way the UFCW will try and paint the site as an anti-union effort. In reality we will be a pro-member project with a goal of giving members the voice the UFCW will deny them. While we're brainstorming on this stuff, I want to ask a related question... Last night I came across a couple of Local 75 hotel collective agreements. I routinely flip through various others (a friend's personal injury law firm can be quite the library!). One of them yesterday gave me a laugh with six letters of understanding signed only by Paul Clifford and no signatures on the employer side. At least Paul 'understood' them. My thoughts were about CBA access. As a unionized employee, I found access to other CBAs was very limited and prohibitive. I know the government has them somewhere, but where? Where do you go to how access, language, rates, clauses and issues across the state, country and continent? Is there a pdf library somewhere... or does uncharted have to build one? Because if that would further freak out employers and union troughers... I'm all for it. _________________ Henri Ducard: Your compassion is a weakness your enemies will not share. Bruce Wayne: That's why it's so important. It separates us from them.
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wm pasz	Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 6:48 pm
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto	I thought you were suggesting a completely new site not connected to this one. If you're thinking of an offshoot of this site (or something that will connect to it)....over to you Kelsey. Can it be done:?: Elvis - there is not central repository of collective agreements across Canada. The Ontario Ministry of Labour keeps a collective agreements library that contains copies of all current (or as current as they can be) collective agreements in Ontario. (Employers and unions are required to file new agreements once they are ratified and printed). The library is located at 400 University Ave., Toronto. Anyone can go and look up whatever agreement they want but copying will cost you whatever the cents/page charge is right now. It would be good to have an electronic database full of agreements but I'm not sure how you would put that together. One way might be to ask different unions if they'd be willing to provide a copy of their agreements for inclusion in something like this. Another might be to pull copies off the Internet (some actually post their agreements). This wouldn't capture all agreements but might provide a good sampling. When are you getting started on this project? _________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X
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Elvis	Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:01 pm
Joined: 01 Feb 2006 Posts: 661 Location: Toronto	wm pasz wrote: It would be good to have an electronic database full of agreements but I'm not sure how you would put that together. One way might be to ask different unions if they'd be willing to provide a copy of their agreements for inclusion in something like this. Another might be to pull copies off the Internet (some actually post their agreements). This wouldn't capture all agreements but might provide a good sampling. When are you getting started on this project? That's what I was getting at. Build it online. If just a few of us members submit a file, it would be a great start... and help us figure out how to manage it as it slowly grows. I was reading an article today about collecting baseball/hockey cards] (which was a large part of my childhood). I got rid of those awhile back. I've pretty much got enough music to make a dozen IPODs choke. A new venture is needed! Got it. Need it. Oooooooh, an original 2003 Mondo Condo CBA!! Mint condition. Protective sleeve. Just wait til this hits ebay in a few years. _________________ Henri Ducard: Your compassion is a weakness your enemies will not share. Bruce Wayne: That's why it's so important. It separates us from them.
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Plutodog	Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:13 pm
Joined: 06 Feb 2006 Posts: 300 Location: Oregon	Pearson wrote: Quote: --but I also agree with plutodog about finding a home for it right here in UNCHARTED--- I thought it would be way forward for me to suggest such an imposition; however if they offered i wouldn't turn it down. The only problem is the way the UFCW will try and paint the site as an anti-union effort. In reality we will be a pro-member project with a goal of giving members the voice the UFCW will deny them. That's a given for such a website, whether started from scratch, clean on a virgin URL or attached to this or another site. If they're unable to successfully ignore the site, they WILL demonize it, they HAVE to. We keep it factual, maintain that we are a UNION reform and membership empowerment site and let them prove otherwise. People will be able to figure it out (those what ain't clones/clowns for current leadership). _________________ "I'm not a humanitarian,I'm a hell-raiser" -- Mother Jones
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loonietunes	Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:22 pm
Joined: 30 Mar 2006 Posts: 1210	Plutodog wrote: Pearson wrote: Quote: --but I also agree with plutodog about finding a home for it right here in UNCHARTED--- I thought it would be way forward for me to suggest such an imposition; however if they offered i wouldn't turn it down. The only problem is the way the UFCW will try and paint the site as an anti-union effort. In reality we will be a pro-member project with a goal of giving members the voice the UFCW will deny them. That's a given for such a website, whether started from scratch, clean on a virgin URL or attached to this or another site. If they're unable to successfully ignore the site, they WILL demonize it, they HAVE to. We keep it factual, maintain that we are a UNION reform and membership empowerment site and let them prove otherwise. People will be able to figure it out (those what ain't clones/clowns for current leadership). Plutodog--you are dead right my friend- -"regular members" will indeed be able to figure it out- --it sometimes takes a very long while--but-in the end-the truth usually wins! LT
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ross53	Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:47 pm
Joined: 24 May 2006 Posts: 1435 Location: california	LT, WROTE: --it sometimes takes a very long while--but-in the end-the truth usually wins! My Dear friend, March 2004 my words to my coworkes:it will take a long time but in the end Mickey will fall. From March 2004 until July 2006, LOCAL 135 and the UFCW International have never gave me the time of the day. Now they are running for cover because I speak the "TRUTH" and the union officals are not happy. My friend stay focus speak nothing but the "TRUTH" and one day the UFCW Brass will go to H.... "union officials earn their paychecks by betraying union members".Ross53
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Jeff-Hulk-Hemp	Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:51 pm
Joined: 10 Feb 2006 Posts: 448	Posted this at Rees /Go-Girls site and here is what she said . We lost a valuable site when slaveway disappeared. siGGy's site is informative but much of the info on there doesn't apply to most of us. With 3500 members on slaveway, we had a large group of people posting from all over and all the divisions that Safeway owned. We could read what was going on, hear what was offered in every new contract. We knew before our union leaders did and we heard it straight from the worker's mouths. Many posted their local's websites so we could read their contracts and compare them with ours. We need a site that would give us that information but you also need members that are willing to post. The only problem I see with having a site that has that kind of information is, the union might not see it as being informative. The powers that be, will think it's an anti-union site and try to shut it down. "You KNOW that people will make derogatory comments about how negotiations are going and how their local is handling itself and it will be taken as an attack on the U.F.C.W." If links are posted they will say it's being used without their authorization as a way to shut down the flow of information. It could be done but then the site will have to be carefully watched and monitored so nothing is posted that might cause problems. It'll be a lot of work but it could be so useful. #1. You would have to make sure that anyone that posts is a union member. #2. The site would have to be monitored constantly. #3. Anything posted would have to be facts not rumors. #4. How to get the word out to people to join? #5. Try to find someone who is a working union member or somehow connected to the U.F.C.W but has the time to devote to operate the site. It's sounds good but it could be more work than anyone wants to take on. And yours truly Well my idea would be this but how can we make sure management would not try to restrain members from joining .They could if the messagebroad link is posted in the stores they could rip down the sign .Maybe the unions could post sent flyers to all union members and have list of names of members once they join like they do with the international newsletters .I give a idea to our local once to e-mail members with updates in contract talks instaed of posting them in the stores .The union told me that it would be hard to get everyones e-mail put into the system .http://thisgirlsgoing.proboards51.com/index.cgi?board=vons
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Pearson	Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:53 pm
Joined: 03 Feb 2006 Posts: 1417 Location: Sun City AZ	Quote: It's sounds good but it could be more work than anyone wants to take on. Thanks for posting GG's comments from that site Jeff, it does pose one of the problems we would have. Lots of UFCW members are way stuck in hopes that their union will suddenly make a quantum leap and become an organization that is interested in the members first and the org and the leaders somewhere after that. They see coming to uncharted as something akin to a sin; a venial one perhaps rather than a killer mortal one, but a sin no less. For people who are still believers its tough to let it go and speak out freely. What more concerns me are GG's (Ree's) comments on the criteria for participating; way too stringent. The whole concept of biz unionism is getting members fixed on finding the "truth" in only one place; and of course that place is from them. Scary, because the one thing we have seen over and over again is how they "manipulate" the truth. If you set down strict perameters, then in essence you buy into the logic the only gospel you should listen to/hear is the one they are preaching. It is one of the reasons members often go from believers to non: They see nothing in between. A website with wide open discussion and opinions and controversy will give members/workers options. It will allow them to vent and to tell their leadership how they feel, what they want, what they expect. It is essential if labor is to survive that we move from the closed system we are trapped in now to a wide open energized and free flowing structure that people see as one they want to belong to. _________________ If we don't do it, who will?
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