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Put Away the Flags
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| atuuschaaw |
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Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 781 Location: an ahwangan |
On this July 4, we would do well to renounce nationalism and all its symbols: its flags, its pledges of allegiance, its anthems, its insistence in song that God must single out America to be blessed.
read more... _________________ "Speaking the truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." George Orwell |
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| Mulligan |
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Joined: 04 Feb 2006 Posts: 358 Location: Ground Zero |
Quote: …its flags, its pledges of allegiance, its anthems,… You mean like this one? O beautiful for spacious skies, For amber waves of grain For purple mountain majesty Above the fruited plain America! America! God shed His grace on thee, And crown thy good with brotherhood From sea to shining sea. O beautiful for pilgrim feet Whose stern impassioned stress A thoroughfare for freedom beat Across the wilderness America! America! God mend thine every flaw, Confirm thy soul in self control Thy liberty in law Or this one: My county 'tis of thee, Sweet land of liberty, Of thee I sing Land where by fathers died! Land of the pilgrims' pride! From every mountainside Let freedom ring! Our fathers' God, to Thee, Author of liberty, To Thee we sing Long may our land be bright With freedom's holy light, Protect us by Thy might, Great God, our King Tell us which you like better, AT. Or is there another that is your favorite? _________________ The snow is gone. |
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| atuuschaaw |
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Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 781 Location: an ahwangan |
Thanks Mull, nice verses but sort of hollow somehow!
Quote: O beautiful for pilgrim feet
Whose stern impassioned stress A thoroughfare for freedom beat Across the wilderness The song fails to mention the people that were beat along with the thoroughfare across the wilderness. It also fails to describe the freedom which came from the detention camps set up for them! Just another holiday down here in the lower 48 and the sounds of celebration have now subsided somewhat. However I understand our Department of Defense is planning their own special fireworks display which will make all the others seem tame and insignificant. Who knows, maybe one day this holiday will be renamed Expansion Day. It just seems to better portray the direction our nation has taken through the years since the other totalitarian's asses were kicked and independence from England was proclaimed. From the man who was called a traitor for criticizing the government's decision to invade the Philippines: Quote: “The gospel of the monarchical patriotism is: ‘The King can do no wrong.’ We have adopted it with all its servility, with an unimportant change in the wording: ‘Our country, right or wrong!’ We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had—the individual’s right to oppose both flag and country when he believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it, all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism.” -Mark Twain- And the words of Frederick Douglas from his Independence Day Speech. Quote: What, to the American slave, is your Fourth of July? I answer: a day that reveals to him, more than all other days in the year, the gross injustice and cruelty to which he is the constant victim. To him, your celebration is a sham; your boasted liberty, an unholy license; your national greatness, swelling vanity; your sounds of rejoicing are empty and heartless; your denunciation of tyrants, brass-fronted impudence; your shouts of liberty and equality, hollow mockery; your prayers and hymns, your sermons and thanksgivings, with all your religious parade and solemnity, are, to Him, mere bombast, fraud, deception, impiety, and hypocrisy-a thin veil to cover up crimes which would disgrace a nation of savages. There is not a nation of savages. There is not a nation on the earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people of the United States at this very hour. _________________ "Speaking the truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." George Orwell |
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| Mulligan |
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Joined: 04 Feb 2006 Posts: 358 Location: Ground Zero |
Quote: —the individual’s right to oppose both flag and country when he believed them to be in the wrong. I’m not sure what kind of a burr Sam Clemens had under his saddle when he said that, but I can’t think of a time in American history that a citizen couldn’t oppose the political actions of this country –any more than you are forbidden to voice your own opposition. You must be speaking of some kind of social pressure because I haven’t noticed that the government has forbidden dissent. In fact Cindy Sheehan and others are going on a hunger strike in opposition to the war in Iraq as I write. Many others (the Dixie Chicks come to mind) are extremely vocal in their opposition to the war and this administration’s policies in general. I’m really not sure what the nature of your discontent is, except to note that any display of patriotism is for some reason, an annoying concept for you –which makes you something of an eccentric IMO. Quote: There is not a nation on the earth guilty of practices more shocking and bloody than are the people of the United States at this very hour. As far as Frederick Douglas and American slavery is concerned; I think your history is a little weak. Douglas made the speech in 1841 according to your link. Ten years later the US was embroiled in the American Civil War, which ostensibly ended slavery. At war’s end, the Federal Government occupied the South with troops and administrators in what was known as the ‘Reconstruction,’ or more accurately, a Federal lockdown of the South. In the 1950s, Eisenhower, and later Kennedy, sent Federal Troops into the South again to enforce social integration. By 1964/5 Lyndon Johnson’s administration initiated the Civil Rights Act, which spelled out the laws against social discrimination. Douglas had good cause to voice his objection to slavery in 1841, but that was 165 years ago. The US has since taken great measures, as I have outlined above, to correct that injustice. I realize this is probably very boring history. It’s so much easier to find some website that agrees with one’s opinion instead of actually using factual information; i.e. reading history books –but do try to bear with me on this. _________________ The snow is gone. |
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| atuuschaaw |
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Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 781 Location: an ahwangan |
Quote: I’m really not sure what the nature of your discontent is, except to note that any display of patriotism is for some reason, an annoying concept for you –which makes you something of an eccentric IMO. No, I haven't said anything against patriotism. It's the nationalism that is a danger to the nation, not patriotism. Patriotism is difficult for a nationalist to understand I guess? There is a huge difference you know! But it's common knowledge that nationalists are eccentrics also, so I suppose that it's innevitable that us eccentrics will come to the fence over our differences of eccentricity. Quote: I realize this is probably very boring history. It’s so much easier to find some website that agrees with one’s opinion instead of actually using factual information; i.e. reading history books –but do try to bear with me on this. No, it's not boring history, but your points of history are very selective, partial, superficial, and written and produced by nationalists as well! If it's in the book, I guess it's undebatable and if it's not in the book, it just didn't happen? If we've made any progress in this nation, it was won through the fighting of the real patriots and absolutely not through the agendas of the dyed-in-the-wool nationalists and their twist on our history. _________________ "Speaking the truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." George Orwell |
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| SharynS |
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2939 Location: the 'puter |
Quote: instead of actually using factual information; i.e. reading history books.. _________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
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| atuuschaaw |
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Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 781 Location: an ahwangan |
Quote: Thanks AT, I see you already got to it. My pleasure siggy! But I forgot to offer Mull a link to another book by the author of the original piece, Howard Zinn. It's entitled A People's History Of The United States, and in the past, people were offered twenty dollars if they read the book and didn't think it was completely worth their time. The disclaimer says of all the people who took them up on the offer, none collected! _________________ "Speaking the truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." George Orwell |
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| SharynS |
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2939 Location: the 'puter |
I was just thinking how difficult it's gonna' be (is) for the bushnik's to 'accurately' record their reign and then get it published into one of those indisputable hard cover thingies. Actually I was laughing out loud. What else struck me is the hypocracy of nationalism in the face of the much touted and revered globalism - how does that work? _________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
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| Plutodog |
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Joined: 06 Feb 2006 Posts: 300 Location: Oregon |
I have to agree, Zinn's book is an eye opener for anyone (everyone?) who got their history from our American public schools. From the first visit to the American continental shores to the present day, things kinda haven't always go well with the 'truth, justice and the American way' motto.
I am proud of what America says she stands for, I insist on continuing the fight to make her live up to it. I think it's silly to be proud to be an American as if we had the good sense to CHOOSE which womb in which country to be born out of. It's just the luck of the draw. I'm glad to be an American, damned lucky to be born here and not so stupid as to think all the folks born in far poorer, crueler countries and cultures are getting what they got coming for their stupid choice of birth. I think I'd love to hear from you, Mulligan after you've read Zinn's book and that would include what you think of the documentation that he provides for his history. There's more to be said about more recent history of what's happened to American dissenters, both union and otherwise politically active but I don't want to pile on... Arf Arf _________________ "I'm not a humanitarian,I'm a hell-raiser" -- Mother Jones |
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| loonietunes |
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Joined: 30 Mar 2006 Posts: 1210 |
I find this conversation very interesting and in the true spirit of freedom!!!
The only point I want to make is this-- "Working people" ie: "Union Members"--here in the U.S.---have taken an absolute economic Ass-Kicking--since---- Nafta---and the WTO---became the "New World Order"--- No Doubt--that "Nationalism" in general has historically lead to some really "bad shit" in the world community--- But -a little nationalism in the U.S. would have gone a long way in making certain that its everyday working citizens could afford to put Gas in their Cars--Food on their Table---and ----Medicine in their cabinet. -Just a taught-- -I love you all--- LT |
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| Plutodog |
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Joined: 06 Feb 2006 Posts: 300 Location: Oregon |
I dunno what you'd call it Lt (not so sure it takes 'nationalism'), but I think true reciprocity -- fair trade -- would be the solution here.
Now I have a flag, fly it proudly for what it means to me, and one of the main things is the right to burn that self-same flag if it becomes a form of speech I choose to engage in. Imagine, for instance if a true Hitler clone took over our government and waved the hell out of our flag to stir up American support for infamous historical Hitler law and policies right here in the USA. Gas ovens for jews and homesexuals and the whole shebang. Wouldn't he then be dishonoring the flag and would anybody then find any issue with someone burning the flag in protest? I mean that's an extreme example trying to flush out where the extreme line is but it doesn't have to be that bad for free speech to find need to be expressed in the flag burning act. The flag's the symbol of a freedom that would be abridged in protecting that symbol from destruction. Like a snake eating it's tail. Crazy. Arf Arf _________________ "I'm not a humanitarian,I'm a hell-raiser" -- Mother Jones |
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| atuuschaaw |
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Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 781 Location: an ahwangan |
LT, I think what you are talking about is better described as isolationism or protectionism.
I think we need to declare new language which represents what the people desire in this day and time. I mean after all, we are under the thumb of a new regime now who plays by different rules and schemes than England did back in the 18th century. Emma Goldman wrote about A New Declaration of Independence back in 1909. Perhaps the time for designing and defining our new freedom is drawing close. Quote: We, therefore, the liberty-loving men and women, realizing the great injustice and brutality of this state of affairs, earnestly and boldly do hereby declare, That each and every individual is and ought to be free to own himself and to enjoy the full fruit of his labor; that man is absolved from all allegiance to the kings of authority and capital; that he has, by the very fact of his being, free access to the land and all means of production, and entire liberty of disposing of the fruits of his efforts; that each and every individual has the unquestionable and unabridgeable right of free and voluntary association with other equally sovereign individuals for economic, political, social, and all other purposes, and that to achieve this end man must emancipate himself from the sacredness of property, the respect for man-made law, the fear of the Church, the cowardice of public opinion, the stupid arrogance of national, racial, religious, and sex superiority, and from the narrow puritanical conception of human life. -Emma Goldman- _________________ "Speaking the truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." George Orwell |
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| catbear955 |
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Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 136 Location: Upland, Ca. |
What are the wedge issues that get folks to the polls here in the U.S.A.? Gay marriage, illegal immigration, abortion rights---those things get Sally and Johnny Kneejerk to the votin' booth.Even if there are poison pills attatched to the bills, their Reverend said they gotta vote to save the American family.
Well, when a majority seems to be chasing phantom issues, what do the rest of us do? Well, we don't vote because voting's boring, our votes don't count, nothing's going to change,there's no one to vote for...you've heard all the excuses, I'm sure. We don't have to face death when we cast our votes. One of the greatest acts of patriotism is to go to your polling place and cast your ballot---it's your right and your civic responsibility!It is so easy for us, and yet too few participate in our own democracy. I have a great love and respect for all living things; the earth has been kind and patient with the politics we have imposed upon her. The lines nations of men draw do not exist from space; they and we are invisible, and yet we spill our own blood over them. There should not be the necessity of a national tragedy or disaster of a grand proportion for us to be able to stand together; it should not only be occaisionally in mourning, but daily in celebration of the rights we have extended to one another. Freedom means being able to burn a flag,or any other symbol of nationalism, as a form of protest. Flag burning is another example of a wedge issue---don't worry about being able to pay your heating bills, or buy groceries or see a doctor; someone might burn an American flag made in China! _________________ ...a dream lives on forever... |
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| SharynS |
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2939 Location: the 'puter |
The story peddled by imperial apologists is a poisonous fairytale Quote: Aresurrection is haunting the British media, the bizarre apparition of "benevolent empire". It takes the form of documentaries and discussions steered towards the conclusion that colonialism was not such a bad thing after all and that something of a celebration is in order. Trouble is, to get there, some creative reworking of the facts is needed. _________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
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| unionnow |
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Joined: 05 Feb 2006 Posts: 695 Location: Gettin the Hell out of retail |
Quote: Imagine, for instance if a true Hitler clone took over our government and waved the hell out of our flag to stir up American support for infamous historical Hitler law and policies right here in the USA. Gas ovens for jews and homesexuals and the whole shebang. Wouldn't he then be dishonoring the flag and would anybody then find any issue with someone burning the flag in protest? I don’t think that were such a great country that this could not happen here. The people can defer any power they want to the G. The Germans were a pretty educated group of people. Once war upon war tore up their society and drove the value of their currency in the toilet they latched onto the first thing that would bring them out of their misery. I know people who lived through that. The used to run to shop when they got paid and bought anything they could get their hands on because the next day it was more expensive. It was better to barter something you did not need for something you needed than to run out and try to buy what you needed that day because inflation was that bad. Remember the thread about defacing currency? Quote: Whoever mutilates, cuts, defaces, disfigures, or perforates, or unites or cements together, or does any other thing to any bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt issued by any national banking association, or Federal Reserve bank, or the Federal Reserve System... Our currency is an instrument of debt (note above the term other evidence of debt issued) according to the Federal Reserve and not something of value. It’s a medium of exchange that is only based on the good faith and credits of our country. Once that credit is gone the currency is worthless, then what? If things got that desperate in this country people would latch onto the first nationalistic leader that would solve their poverty by whatever means available. It’s the Madd Max scenario. Except the people allow the government officials to become Madd Max. _________________ “The burden against Damascus. ‘Behold, Damascus will cease from being a city, and it will be a ruinous heap. (Isaiah 17:1-2) |
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