Home
Forums
News & Views
Skip the Class War
Forums
News & Views
Skip the Class War
Skip the Class War
| Author | Message |
|---|---|
| wm pasz |
Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:36 am
|
|
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto |
If you want a different kind of world order - let's say one that is driven by the interests of humans rather than corporations - get class war out of your head. There's a better way. Check it out.
_________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X |
| Back to top | profile :: pm :: www |
| SharynS |
Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:59 am
|
|
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2939 Location: the 'puter |
This could explain why I have so much in common with so many people and yet don't specifically fit in anywhere like I've been led to believe I'm supposed to. Why I could never find my class. One box size does not fit all, never has, never will. Awesome write wm!
_________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
| Back to top | profile :: pm :: e-mail :: www |
| wm pasz |
Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:24 pm
|
|
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto |
I do not like being placed in a "class". It's not that I'd rather be in some other more prestigious class, I find the whole idea of class_ifying humans offensive.
As far as the one-size fits all ideological package, I can see how Marx in his very homogenous German society of the mid-1800's might have thought that this kind of group-think was possible (the people in his working class all had the same ethnic background, same history, same religious beliefs, same everything) but how you can think such a thing is possible in today's diverse North American society is pretty astounding. A really good example of the alienating power of ideological packages is Syd Ryan's recent condemnation of Israel on behalf of all CUPE members. Syd's latest publicity stunt has been met with condemnation by CUPE members and the public but he claims that the members unanimously voted in favour of the resolution. The reality is that a very small number of delegates voted in favour of the resolution in keeping with the time-honoured mainstream union tradition of voting the party line or never getting another invite to a convention again. I have no idea how the mainstream left and its organs expect to rally support for anything if they require that people adopt the views of its leaders regardless of their own deeply held convictions. _________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X |
| Back to top | profile :: pm :: www |
| Pearson |
Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:02 pm
|
|
Joined: 03 Feb 2006 Posts: 1417 Location: Sun City AZ |
Simply an awesome read wm p. Ya done good in keeping it simple and concise and it makes perfect sense. I should pass this on to my old communist friends back in Minnesota; i suspect they would love to debate the issue...probably for days, weeks and months. Hell, one time they showed me a website with the 27 (or whatever) models of communism and socialism and wanted to explain every variation. Fanatical would be being very kind.
The piece did a great job of destroying the historical notion its us vs them. Hardly anyone buys that except the real hardcore, and that loses the vast majority of folks. You've also nailed exactly one of the primary reasons unions fail. Its always all or nothing with them. This concept of communities of interest is brilliant. It allows people to choose where and what they join based on their personal wants and needs. How easy and attractive is that? Thanks, ya done good. This piece should get more play than on Uncharted. You should submit it to a weekly or monthly magazine of newspaper...it's that damn good. _________________ If we don't do it, who will? |
| Back to top | profile :: pm :: e-mail |
| CUPE_Reformer |
Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:17 pm
|
|
Joined: 04 Feb 2006 Posts: 241 Location: Real Solidarity |
Pearson wrote: This piece should get more play than on Uncharted. Pearson: It is also at EnMasse. Skip the Class War _________________ Real Solidarity |
| Back to top | profile :: pm :: www |
| SharynS |
Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:29 pm
|
|
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2939 Location: the 'puter |
Quote: It is also at EnMasse. 
_________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
| Back to top | profile :: pm :: e-mail :: www |
| Pearson |
Posted: Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:27 pm
|
|
Joined: 03 Feb 2006 Posts: 1417 Location: Sun City AZ |
Thanks for the link and the thread c_r, it helped me remember one of the reasons i retired when i did. My friends way on the left had this class warfare crap hanging from their chins and the sight of it made me nauseous. The site and comments attached to it are just more of the same.
The sad thing was, and still is, the minute they start talking in Marxist terms people nod off. Hell in some cases they ran from the building screaming. It's just too much drama, too much anger and too much fighting undefinable foes. I thought wm p's ideas on bringing people together were far more the point than rather whether Fossel(?) had the historical makeup of the classes just right. Funny how the folks way out in left field love to pick fly shit and leave the flies to buzz around with nary a swat. We used to spend an entire evening debating the use of a single word. God love em. It might be fun if you invite some of them over: nuh, on second thought, they appear quite content to debate their own content. _________________ If we don't do it, who will? Last edited by Pearson on Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
| Back to top | profile :: pm :: e-mail |
| SharynS |
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:10 am
|
|
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2939 Location: the 'puter |
too funny cr, you could have been seriously hurt taking this piece in there.
Top of the flyshit list: Quote: I mean what do we mean when we say someone is super rich?
How much money is that? At what point does qualify for entry into that category? 
Senor magoo has his work cut out for him. _________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
| Back to top | profile :: pm :: e-mail :: www |
| wm pasz |
Posted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:38 pm
|
|
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto |
OK, I now know that the dawn of a new age is upon us - Pearson agreed with something I said!
But seriously, the EnMasse discussion is really illustrative of what happens when you become an adherent of dogma. You can't conceive of anything that strays outside the boundaries of whatever theory you've swallowed. The group discussing my commentary isn't really discussing the commentary - they're discussing their dogma and the righteousness of their dogma. The conversation quickly devolves into the minutae of their dogma because, beyond praising the dogma and exploring its various theories and facets over and over again, no other kind of discussion is really allowed. You either believe or you don't. If you believe you praise the dogma and seek to make yourself better-versed in the theories of the leader. If you don't believe, there's nothing to talk about. Notice that the only references among the participants in the discussion to the concept in my piece were an inference that "communities of interest" relates to some theory advocated by the Christian Labour Association. That's a pretty standard technique for dodging discussion of something that doesn't fit with your dogma - imply that it's the work of the devil and let's get back to praising the leader. What's so funny about this is that "communities of interest" is a concept that is broadly recognized. LRB's make union certification decisions based on the principle of "community of interest" among groups of workers. David Korten writes about "communities of congruence" in his recent book The Great Turning. Wikipedia provides a good definition. There was also a comment from one of them that they don't like pdf's - don't trust them or something like that. I guess they didn't have pdf's in Marx's day and that may be the reason for the mistrust. You see in their exchange though how deeply wedded they are to the idea of "class" - Does Fussell's hierarchy capture all the classes? How do we decide who's in the "super rich" class? How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? There really isn't much difference between political dogmatists and religious zealots - each wait for their own version of the rapture while the great majority of humans recoil from the whole lot of them and their dogmas. The ingrained belief that there are only two choices - left or right - each involving the need to swallow a bunch of stuff you may not believe in and putting your faith in a leader whom you don't trust is what has prevented the conversations that lead to community from happening on any scale so far. I'm hoping that this will change. I found Korten's book very inspiring to this end. His thought that by enabling people to tell their stories - stories about their experiences within the exising order - as as means of prompting the Great Turning is something that's resonating with me big time right now. _________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X |
| Back to top | profile :: pm :: www |
| Pearson |
Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:09 pm
|
|
Joined: 03 Feb 2006 Posts: 1417 Location: Sun City AZ |
Quote: OK, I now know that the dawn of a new age is upon us - Pearson agreed with something I said! Geez, don't let it go to your head wm p; you know how us UFCW leaders (and former) love to feel superior; especially to those of the opposite gender. Easy sport, always did love strong independent thinking women.  .
You are so right, these guys are trapped in a fissure so narrow they can't see anywhere but straight up. It is this kind of close minded thinking that has locked them in a setting where even when they lose they act like they won. My reformation over the years has been advanced and enhanced as i watched with total frustration as the members lost and the leadership continued to win. That concept has to grate on anyone with an ounce of morals. It is so biz unionish to stand at a podium and praddle on about social and economic justice and then let your members get crushed. And, all the while you are taking big assed increases yourself. The thing i liked about your piece was the simplicity of it. Linking folks together through their common interests is pure and almost ensures a reasonable degree of success. God forbid the brain trust step out of their "comfort zone" to find ways for members, workers and society at large to meld into a community to force change. Reminds me a little of the time Hillary Clinton said it takes a village to raise a child. The hue and cry was off the charts. It is the big picture. This discussion is about how you move the mountain, but doing so in chunks rather than all at once. Can we bring people together in clusters based on their common interests? Can we create communities where the goals are identified and attractive enough to draw people in to work together towards change. I think the answer is definately YES. _________________ If we don't do it, who will? |
| Back to top | profile :: pm :: e-mail |
| atuuschaaw |
Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:25 pm
|
|
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 781 Location: an ahwangan |
Awesome wp! The very idea of class is just another fence, border, or hurdle the people have to conquer in my opinion. Another method of alienating the people. Systems and sysops, phases and stages...more cirlcles and cycles! Keep 'em separated, keep 'em dumb, and keep 'em satisfied! Such a simple dogmatic designed control! We are such an easy bunch aren't we?
Quote: Complex design problems often cannot be solved by individuals or by homogenous groups. Communities of interest (CoIs) (defined by their collective concern
with the resolution of a problem) bring together stakeholders from different communities of practice (CoP). Reaching a common understanding between these stakeholders is a major challenge due to the “symmetry of ignorance” caused by their respective cultures and their use of different knowledge systems. Quote: too funny cr, you could have been seriously hurt taking this piece in there. LOL...way to go cr! 
_________________ "Speaking the truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." George Orwell |
| Back to top | profile :: pm :: e-mail :: www |
| wm pasz |
Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:22 am
|
|
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto |
Class_ifying humans - any kind of sorting that involves people being placed in a hierarchy - leads inevitable to three outcoms:
1. Those on the lower rungs of the hierarchy want to move up onto the higher rungs. 2. Those on the lower rungs fight those above them and lose. 3. Those on the lower rungs become docile and submissive, accepting their lowly status as their rightful place in the hierarchy. As soon as you accept that the hierarchy is OK (even if that is only because you can't imagine life without it), then you've put yourself in a position where one of those (or some combination of those) is going to happen to you. Union leaders are a good example of how those on the lower rungs aspire to the higher rungs. This is how they are able to yap about social justice all the while living large and scheming to live even larger. If you've ever wondered how these guys are able to reconcile the incongruity between their "walk" and their "talk" well, it's because to them it feels perfectly OK to want to be part of the affuent class. They accept that there are a few different classes in society and that it must be this way and they want to be in one of the ones where you get to have a lot of fun and status. I think they see their union work in the same sort of light as rich entrepreneurs see their philanthropic work - it's a nice thing to do to help out the less fortunate. The high life is their compensation for their charitable work. As for fighting the boss - well, I honestly don't know anyone who has done this and avoided the axe. Even in a unionized workplace, those who fight with the boss get stomped (with the help of their union). Union members who challenge their managers or take on their employer are regarded as kooks. Stewards who try to take on the boss are quickly reigned in by their business agents. Only union leaders can fight with the boss and even then, it's just for show as they know that, in a hierarchical set-up, he who tries to stomp somebody above him gets booted. Our labour relations legal framework is specifically set up to ensure that this is what happens. In the non-union world the predictability of getting the boot for pissing on the boss is really high. Probably about 100%. The hierarchy requires that this is the case. I mean, if you let one person diss the boss and get away with it, sooner or later somebody else is going to do it and before you know it that whole hierarchical structure is in trouble. Whether the battle is the result of desire to usurp the bosses' position or out of a genuine sense of injustice, the outcome is always the same. The severance payments and damages awards vary but there's never any doubt about who won and who lost. For this reason, I think that if we wish to empower working people such that they are no longer exploited and mistreated, we must look to the root causes of exploitation and mistreatment. The idea that there are social classes is one of those but another and much deeper cause is the hierarchical nature of workplace relations. Social classes are a murky concept in our society but there's no place where hierarchies of humans are more obvious and more deeply rooted than in the workplace. Beyond the managerial/non-managerial "sort" there are so many others - job classifications, wage teirs, you name it. These have the effect of keeping all those humans in the workplace in a state of competition, antagonism or submission. Of course, those "above" have the last word over those below. Wonder why people haven't been rising up much lately? They're somewhat distracted. Exploding the hierarchy is a noble cause I think. The time is right. Notice all the concern these days over workplace bullying? People are falling over themselves to talk about the subject. So far the phenomenon has been misdiagnosed as the work of corner office psychopaths. That's dead wrong. It's the hierarchy. The sooner we get people thinking that maybe it's not a "must have", the better. _________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X |
| Back to top | profile :: pm :: www |
| catbear955 |
Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 4:01 am
|
|
Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 136 Location: Upland, Ca. |
I was told by an upper-manangement person fueled by beer,that there are only two classes; "them" and "us".
Supposedly, the ones with the most toys win, and if you can't run with the big dogs, you have to get off of the porch. Allegedly, it all has to do with money---how much you have, how much more you can get, and how much you can keep. To buy the toys, and have the time to run with the dogs, that is. We should all just wait for the big playing field to get level. He alleged that when that happens, we'll all get what we want---whatever that is. There's nothing like drunken oversimplification from the big boss to make you fear for your future... _________________ ...a dream lives on forever... |
| Back to top | profile :: pm :: aim :: yim :: msnm |
| Plutodog |
Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:09 am
|
|
Joined: 06 Feb 2006 Posts: 300 Location: Oregon |
I agree, it ought to be spread further -- and I'd like to put in on at www.oregonworkersunion.org. It's so good, I wanted a slightly more concise (11 page) version so I'm asking permission to republish there with accreditation.
This is right in line with what our little fledgling attempt at independence is working for. Arf Arf _________________ "I'm not a humanitarian,I'm a hell-raiser" -- Mother Jones |
| Back to top | profile :: pm :: www |
| wm pasz |
Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:18 am
|
|
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto |
By all means, republish at will.
_________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X |
| Back to top | profile :: pm :: www |
Home
Forums
News & Views
Skip the Class War
Forums
News & Views
Skip the Class War
|
Page 1 of 1
|
||