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Paul Moist has no ideas
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| SharynS |
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2883 Location: the 'puter |
Quote: ...just the understanding of those millions of people will change our old animalistic ways _________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
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| The Third Element |
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Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 363 |
Though not terribly supportive of Anarchy or Extreme Socialism, I am willing to dedicate a bit of time to the cause the three of you are trying to outline, anything is better than modern trade unions.
Personally I think it is Quixotical to expect human's to drop greed and ambition, but that's not to say there may not be some other bridge to send you long suffering trade unionists over to. So, I dig. (Can you tell I am in a good mood?) It's a beautiful day for discovery. I have of course ended up reading a lengthy discertation, something I am not wont to do very often, but this is after all a "cause". It is about Murray Bookchin. I am sure you will n0t be surprised to hear that this is the first time I have ever heard of the man, much less taken an hour read about him. It was interesting. Bookchin’s Originality – A Reply to Marcel Van der Linden There are a plethroa of stepping off points from this read. Some notable doorways: Quote: Then at last came the war’s end – and the Trotskyists watched with bated breath: Would the long-awaited proletarian revolution finally emerge? In Britain a Labor government came to power that proceeded to nationalize major industries and utilities and institute the National Health Service. That is, the system rewarded the working class for its many wartime sacrifices and thereby gave it a stake in maintaining the existing system, a strategy that turned out to be effective. As for the American workers, they mounted a large strike wave almost immediately after the Japanese surrender. Tens of thousands of oil workers, coal miners, lumber workers, truck drivers, and machinists went on strike. In the first half of 1946, 2.97 million workers, across numerous industries, downed tools; the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics called those six months “the most concentrated period of labor-management strife in the country’s history.” But this strife did not end in a revolution, and the workers ended up accepting wages that were sometimes even below wartime levels.
One of the most radical American labor unions was the United Auto Workers (UAW), which in November 1945 mounted a strike against General Motors, requesting a 30 percent wage increase. When GM refused the demand, 225,000 workers downed tools and stayed out for almost four months. In the end, however, the union accepted a paltry wage increase. After his own military service Murray went to work for General Motors in New Jersey and joined the UAW, hoping for another, more militant strike. But disappointingly for him, the 1945–46 strike was not repeated. During collective bargaining in 1948 the autoworkers accepted a guaranteed annual wage increase and other benefits. For Murray, this outcome shattered any remaining expectations he had about the working class. Never again would he believe that the working class would perform its Marx-cast role: It was no longer clear that capitalism, as Marx had predicted, would destroy itself by reducing workers to an intolerable state of poverty. Instead, labor and capital began to join together in a “happy union,” such that capitalism was able to use many unions in order to remove labor militants. The radical workers of yesterday stopped wearing their union buttons and moved to the suburbs. (Murray Bookchin, Anarchism, Marxism, and the Future of the Left (San Francisco and Edinburgh: A.K. Press, 1999), p. 48.) Also: Quote: To his credit, then, Weber embraced the concept of democracy. As I’ve mentioned, the formal name that he gave to his several groups was “Movement for a Democracy of Content.”(33) Now, the formulation “democracy of content” is rather ambiguous: after all, democracy is by definition not a matter of content; it is in the last instance a set of rules to ensure equitable and fair popular rule. Democracy, ideally, vests power in the people (as opposed to rulers), such that each citizen has an equal voice, and none has more weight than others. The content of the issues upon which they deliberate and decide is beside the point. As we normally think of it, democracy is a matter of form and specifically not of content. I am going out in the sun, have fun. _________________ No Beast so fierce knows but some small amount of pity, but I know none and so I am no beast. ~ Richard III |
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| Cupe Doll |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 69 Location: Toronto |
Quote: It seems to me that just as differences in meaning may be at the root of our conflicts, these can also play a role in keeping us disempowered. Yes. Yes indeed. But how do you convey the reality of meanings in this day and age? We are fallen too deeply into false materialism. On the right there's the childish, ultimately empty over-consumption disease. Only material possession is thought to be meaningful. But it isn't, of course. Nothing material can in itself provide meaning. It can only be invested with meaning. That's why any sense of signifying, of knowing who one is and what one stands for goes totally missing in merely material striving. So, on the right, people just keep on starving for meaning. But because how deeply we've fallen into materialism in the West? What do people on the right do to try to fill the gaping void at the core of their identities? That's right. Seek ever more material possessions to consume. Which, of course, satisfies nothing meaningful. Leading to yet further alienation and sense of personal insignificance. On the right, people are literally possessed by consumption -- hearts, minds and spirits utterly consumed by everything they seek to possess. And it isn't any better on the left -- where the materialist dogma has become just as absolute. Identity itself becomes understood only materially -- as if only material class can define who you are. Who you can and cannot be. Identity, conflict, oppression all become relegated to material difference only. You cannot have true collaboration -- or even understanding -- across economic class, across gender, across race. Moreover? Whenever there is conflict? The meaning of human conflict gets strenuously ignored. Since only material difference can account for conflict. We can't possibly disagree about meanings. And thus, there can never be any meaningful understanding of conflict. Or of identity, either. Since identity cannot possibly, in our materialist dogma, be understood as a choice of meanings. As meaningful choices. If you're a woman and want to understand men? Don't think. Get an operation. If you went from rags to riches? You thereby become another class enemy. What's the point? Simply that while there were never many principled people around before -- now there are almost none. Principles, ideals, meaning itself has been discounted. Your greatest ideals no longer matter. Your worst ideologies no longer matter. They just aren't material. All that matters now are the shallow material distinctions. Your membership in one material class versus another. Hence, Western materialism has become too extreme to allow much hoping for a more idealist, collaborative association. The only way forward, on my view? To begin with however few individuals do share an ideal. Only much later, if and when that ideal is put into materially successful practice, can greater membership become either desireable or practical. Is this an argument favouring elitism? Well.. it may be elitist. But it's much more a lament than an argument. _________________ www.ultimatecultureclash.com |
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| SharynS |
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2883 Location: the 'puter |
If nothing else (and I do mean nothing), Biehl's piece on historical theorists and who did what when, adds weight to the more enlightened notion that: " revolution changes nothing. It is a wheel:".
No matter how many spokes are added a wheel is a wheel is a wheel. Revolutions - round and round and.... _________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
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| Cupe Doll |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 69 Location: Toronto |
Quote: revolution changes nothing Isn't that interesting. Revolution changes nothing -- whereas evolution can change everything. Moreover, revolution is populist -- hinging on greater numbers joining to proceed -- whereas evolution can happen in a garage. As in garage band. As in check the computer we built in the garage. But? I think what we're talking here is the possibility of populist evolution. Maybe there's a contradiction. Not necessarily an impossibility, though. Just start small. Start with great memes/ideals. Put those ideals into practice. Once that's working? There's the prototype. Show it off. Then, whenever self-involved materialists whose notions of power can't be other than subjugation see how the prototype works? They'll desire what it can produce for them. They'll want it for themselves. But in this case? It wouldn't be like a computer they can just plug in. It would be a set of practices proven to work. And while struggling to make those practices work for them, even the most self-involved would be learning to understand -- and live by -- the great ideals you started from. They'd be infected with those memes. It would be a viral revolution. I.e.: evolutionary. Looking back at what I wrote -- it's just an elaborate way of saying, "Let's not internalize our own oppression any more -- let's externalize some methods of liberation instead." And here's what could be the central principle/tenet/ideal/meme. That the meaning of 'power' has to be liberating. That what's most powerful must be whatever is most liberating to all -- rather than most enabling only one to influence. Or oppress. Or coerce. So, for example, better understanding is powerful. Greater material influence over other people, though? By this (re)definition, that would totally be not-powerful. Weird, eh? WMP, this is probably exactly what you were talking about: Quote: We think of power as control, domination, calling the shots. What if that were to change to "building", creating, evolving, things that are of value to the community as as whole? What if we redefined the current conception of power as something undesirable or socially unacceptable - like "abuse" or anti-social behaviour? We just have to stay away from bringing coercive machinery and legal apparatus to bear. To be clear that when we talk about "socially unacceptable" notions of power? That's an understanding only. Not a threat. We can't be saying there ought to be a law and more regulation. Because falling back into coercive measuring would be repeating the worst of everything that corrupted state communism and trade unionism from within. And that would so NOT be powerful by our own (re)definition of power. It's got to be about teaching a novel understanding of power -- and about getting people to want to learn about it just because they see it working to greater material benefits. Because they desire to get it materially working for them too. And I think we've got all the tools we need to start. Actually, I think we may already have started. But I've got no clue if I'm even making sense right now. So I'll stop wait and see what you guys think. _________________ www.ultimatecultureclash.com |
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| wm pasz |
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Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto |
Quote: It's got to be about teaching a novel understanding of power -- and about getting people to want to learn about it just because they see it working to greater material benefits. Because they desire to get it materially working for them too. Yes, this is it exactly. People need to understand power, its variations and permutations, and how it influences their behaviour, for good and ill, whether they have power to wield or not. As a group we tend to think of ourselves as disempowered so we don't think about this stuff but we individually and in groups, engage in power relations all the time, wherever we go. Our relationship with power (how we perceive it, use it, react to it and so on) determines whether we do good or harm, care for others or simply look out for ourselves, dominate others or submit to the will of other, or occupy a space somewhere in between these poles. Each one of us has a set of buttons that span a range of behaviours and motivations from "really good" at one end to "epitome of evil" on the other. Our own personal relationship with power determines which of those buttons get pressed, when and how often. This is something that the great political theorists have consistently missed and that's why their theories inevitably tank. (I was reading the Biehl article that TTE referenced in his post, and thinking wow, how could all those guys have gotten it so wrong? Well, the reason is that they assume that "the people" are just one big amorphous blob or "mass" that has the same motivations and interests and it just ain't that simple.) But There's no such thing as "the masses". We're all individuals who react and behave in our own unique ways in relation to power. We all have the capacity to be domineering or docile, depending on the circumstances. Most of us use power irresponsibly and selfishly whenever we get our hands on a little bit of it. This is one of the main reasons that we don't do revolution, no matter how dire our circumstances. There's a part of us that's hard-wired for conformity and compromise. It's a survival instinct that runs really strong in us because the world has always been such a dangerous place. So most of us generally don't seek power but spend most of our time trying to protect ourselves from those who have it. On the other side of the coin, give us a little power and we waste no time in lording it over others. (This may explain why some of the most vulgar bullying that I've ever seen occurs between workers at the lower end of the workplace hierarchy.) Like electrical current, power can be a good thing or a dangerous thing unless channeled or handled in a particular way. You can't let it build up in any particular spot or something destructive will happen. It has to be fluid (you can't hang on to it, you have to keep passing it around - maybe there's an analogy there). But this can't be regulated by the state or imposed from outside (I absolutely do not think the state should involve itself in coercive enforcement), but from within each individual. But we first have to know how to do it. The key to having stable, healthy communities where democracy can flourish is for individuals to understand their own unique relationship with power and to find a (one that benefits themselves and others). This I think might be of interest to people (if it's explained in a way that gets their attention) because it will help them understand what's going on around them at work and in other venues where power relations come into play. Regarding the issue of what to do with the controlling and domineering once we've set up a democratic organization, I think that I should have been clearer in my suggestion about treating this kind of behaviour as social unacceptable. That's not really going to work (and again, there's no way that the state should be sticking its nose into this stuff). I think that what can happen when you get a group of people together who really are operating in an egalitarian manner - that is, everyone contributing towards some common goal to which they are all committed and using a democratic structure to sort out the details - is that the domineering person who comes along will find that there's no interest in what he or she has to offer because it doesn't meet with the needs of the group. They will either not be attracted to the group or will be rejected by the group if their behaviour is beginning to have a destructive impact on the group (i.e., devolution rather than evolution). We actually saw this happen from time to time on our previous site. It's not a question of being shunned, but if you're an autocrat trying to play ball on the egalitarian playing field, there's no real basis for engagement, so eventually they're left with no one to control and you just kind of have to wander off. The key, however, is for the others in the group to understand what they're trying to do so they don't get sucked into your vortex. Again, this requires learning about what happens when power and people intersect. This is definitely an evolutionary thing. That's another reason that the theorists keep getting it wrong. They're trying to predict the future behaviour or large groups of people without (a) understanding what influences them on an individual basis, and (b) ignoring the fact that you can't predict where evolutionary processes will go. _________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X |
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| Cupe Doll |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 69 Location: Toronto |
Ok, so working from that basis -- anyone interested in drafting pragmatic blueprints for a more genuinely democratic collaborative?
Just for fun. See where it goes. Since there seems to be a good deal of experience and expertise -- and ideas. Btw, notice -- I'm calling it "collaborative". To suggest a collective dedicated to better collaborating membership. More genuine democracy. _________________ www.ultimatecultureclash.com |
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| SharynS |
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2883 Location: the 'puter |
Fire away CD, always open to new ideas. There's obviously practical solutions to every problem. It's only when money and power come into play things get complicated. We will have to get over the one size fits all crap - it doesn't.
_________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
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