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Paul Moist has no ideas
Paul Moist has no ideas
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| SharynS |
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2883 Location: the 'puter |
Quote: Please don't take it like tha Quote: ...that more genuine union democracy would be giving working people access to the fire hose. Time to think forward. _________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
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| Cupe Doll |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 69 Location: Toronto |
Quote: .. “voluntary union membership” is a nice concept but how do you suggest sparking that idea and making it attractive to the “little guy”? No need to make it attractive, Laboryes. Just like the idea of divorce, for example. You don't even want to think about it when getting married. But after getting terminally spouse-abused? That's when freedom to choose can become not just attractive -- but imperative. Quote: Just curious CD, just how would you go about getting the “little guy” to view their options in a different color? The most obvious way. Positive structural change such that there actually are some options. So there can actually be some choices. Then the "little guy" can compare and contrast the choices s/he actually has. As in comparison shopping. It isn't rocket science. Doesn't take brain surgery. But then you might ask what sort of positive structural change? Right? Well, 3E had some great suggestions. Not all great -- as CR was sensible to point out -- but for sure some. Ultimately, though? You'll laugh. Still, just as a thought experiment, try to imagine this. A bunch of people form a virtual association. And this virtual association transcends not only members' places of particular employments -- it transcends nationality. Also, of course, membership is totally voluntary, demanding but the most affordable possible dues. To start with, the virtual association has one job only. Defending its membership from oppression. Regardless whether the source of oppression is big government, big labour or transnational corporation. If this were implemented right -- and didn't turn into just another terrorist organization? It could re-define the nature of membership. It could ultimately become not only a trans-national union -- but a genuinely democratic virtual nation. The implications are absolute. Yeah -- I know. The gaps how to get from here to there are endless. But as an idealization, as a goal? It's worth imagining. Whatever the utopian ideal, though -- we have to start where we are. Struggling for more genuine democracy. For more free choices, more voluntary ways and means to associate and relate with one another. What's that last paragraph even mean (I ask myself after re-reading my comment half/day later)? It means labour needs to shovel the totalitarian crap off its porch to make its house habitable. But that this could be just the opportunity to create something great. A more genuine democracy not only for labour. Real solidarity. _________________ www.ultimatecultureclash.com |
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| wm pasz |
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Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto |
Quote: Ultimately, though? You'll laugh. Still, just as a thought experiment, try to imagine this.
A bunch of people form a virtual association. And this virtual association transcends not only members' places of particular employments -- it transcends nationality. Also, of course, membership is totally voluntary, demanding but the most affordable possible dues. To start with, the virtual association has one job only. Defending its membership from oppression. Regardless whether the source of oppression is big government, big labour or transnational corporation. If this were implemented right -- and didn't turn into just another terrorist organization? It could re-define the nature of membership. It could ultimately become not only a trans-national union -- but a genuinely democratic virtual nation. The implications are absolute. Yes! That's it exactly. We were talking about something along those lines on our old site a few years back. Unfortunately, few of the then forum guests could imagine anything that transcended the existing order and the discussion kept sliding backwards into how we can tweek the existing system of labour-management relations. I can imagine this new paradigm though - or at least the outlines of it. I think you've hit a nail on its head though - democratic anything has to exist within a context of democratic everything. Otherwise we are just slaves who get to vote, once in a while, on who the slave representative will be. _________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X |
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| Cupe Doll |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 69 Location: Toronto |
Quote: Yes! That's it exactly. Wow. Mostly I get laughed at when I speculate what more genuine democracy could look like -- and how the failing labour movement could be the best place to start. This is almost, like, exciting. Anyone else around here thinking along the same lines? Quote: democratic anything has to exist within a context of democratic everything. Otherwise we are just slaves who get to vote, once in a while, on who the slave representative will be. Lol. That's it -- exactly. Since representation is never genuine, representative democracy isn't genuinely democratic. _________________ www.ultimatecultureclash.com |
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| wm pasz |
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Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto |
Maybe we are just more far-sighted than others? One can't live under the slogan "redefine the possible" without getting ideas about how one might just do that. (Although I have to admit that I preferred the previous slogan a bit better.)
The problem with the slave representative is that he or she will eventually either cozy up with the master (the most pervasive problem with conventional unionism) or use the limited power that this elevated status affords to pursue personal agendas and interests (the 3903 problem). If we democratize the workplace, will the social order follow? The way must be tried. If you have a few minutes I'm wondering if you could take a look at some stuff that a colleague of mine wrote a while ago on the subject. There are two articles in the initial post in this thread There's also a link to an FAQ that I put together for those who really have a hard time imagining a plantation without any slaves. _________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X |
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| Cupe Doll |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 69 Location: Toronto |
Ok, I'll take a look when there's a couple minutes this weekend... time's busy now but I'm definitely into the possibility of laying some groundwork down. More genuine democracy has to be more than just a talking point....
_________________ www.ultimatecultureclash.com |
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| wm pasz |
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Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto |
Maybe give some thought to how one might plant some genuine democracy seeds at our institution. Gawd only knows, it couldn't hurt.
_________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X |
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| Cupe Doll |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 69 Location: Toronto |
Whew. Just finished a very difficult post. Emotionally difficult. Anyhow, also posted it here (check new topic in forum) as promised.
Now I'll start looking at what you suggested, WMP. _________________ www.ultimatecultureclash.com |
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| Cupe Doll |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 69 Location: Toronto |
Hi WMP. I've skimmed the articles and agree with everything there. But I don't think the articles go nearly far enough. They don't address what I think has got to be the chief criterion of all human organization. Not competence, not consequence -- but power and influence.
Conventional hierarchy doesn't come about because it works best or because it produces best results. Clearly it doesn't. But conventional hierarchy can't fail to come about so long as people crave power. And although power can mean almost infinitely different things to different people, my intuition is that for an association to have any real hope of more genuine democracy, its founding members must share a certain sophistication in their sense of what power means. They must feel genuinely empowered by power-sharing. And when I say "power-sharing", suddenly I'm saying something converging somewhat with "horizontal hierarchy", "internal democracy" etc. But I'm also saying let's not forget that it isn't realistic for the person who can't feel empowered that way. Practically, it means the more genuinely democratic association/union/team/society must first be organized by individuals of a fairly rare kind. Individuals who feel more powerful to be among 3 musketeers than by ruling it over however many downtrodden subjects. Does any of this make sense to you? _________________ www.ultimatecultureclash.com |
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| SharynS |
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2883 Location: the 'puter |
People who understand the benefit in empowerment and of utilizing diversity?
_________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
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| Cupe Doll |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 69 Location: Toronto |
Put it this way. We want to empower individuals in relation to collectives, right? Yet almost always the exact opposite happens. The individual "little guy" gets subjugated in relation to collectives.
What can be done? Huge topic. A few essentials might be: Must go beyond rules to deeper agreement in shared principles. Must move towards sharing great ideals -- and away from the worst ideologies. Must have choice even if all else fails. _________________ www.ultimatecultureclash.com |
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| SharynS |
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2883 Location: the 'puter |
Good basic day to day principles to live by:
1) ignore rules that don't make sense 2) ignore rules obviously harmful to yourself and others 3) ignore chains of command (COCs are 'their' obsession, not ours.) The rats will scatter and the walls will come tumbling down. _________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
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| Cupe Doll |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 69 Location: Toronto |
Totally agreed SharynS. That's how individual little guys should resist getting subjugated by collectives.
But what I'm asking is how can we bring about a collectivity that doesn't subjugate individual little guys in the first place? How do we bring about a collectivity the little guy doesn't have to resist getting subjugated by? A collectivity that mostly or even entirely empowers the little guy? If we could only figure that one out then we could actually start trying to make it happen. _________________ www.ultimatecultureclash.com |
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| SharynS |
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2883 Location: the 'puter |
First of all I'd say let's stop referring to ourselves as the little people. In general stop thinking of ourselves in terms designed and assigned to subjugate. People are the Power Source, always have been always will be.
Other than that create the space, be the function within it. Not the whole solution by any stretch but it does begin the process. _________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
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| wm pasz |
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Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto |
Quote: Practically, it means the more genuinely democratic association/union/team/society must first be organized by individuals of a fairly rare kind. Individuals who feel more powerful to be among 3 musketeers than by ruling it over however many downtrodden subjects.
Does any of this make sense to you? Yes, it does. This is the crux of the issue. The thing I've been wracking my tired brain about for years now. It's become sort of a mission. Creating an egalitarian democracy - whether in a union, workplace, community, etc. - is one thing but how do you keep it that way? How do you keep those who want to control and dominate others from doing so regardless of whatever safeguards you might have in place or from otherwise influencing the constituency through underhanded means? We see it happening all around us in the supposedly democratic institutions. The points that you and Sharyn have listed in the most recent posts are all part of what I think is the overall blueprint. We should keep a running track of these because I think that each one is important and maybe worth elaborating on as the thought process on this subject evovles. I thought that I would touch on Sharyn's comment about the language the we use to describe ourselves. This is something that we've talked about for a long time now. It occurred to us early in our association and seemed like something that just made so much sense: By describing outselves in terms that reinforce our inferior status (rank and file, labour, little people, ordinary people, etc.), and so we continue to internalize our own oppression, making it ever more difficult to slip out from under the yoke. On your site I read an excellent article [url]http://ultimatecultureclash.com/2080]Conflict from Cultural Reasons[/url]. It seems to me that just as differences in meaning may be at the root of our conflicts, these can also play a role in keeping us disempowered. The meaning behind those words we use to describe ourselves and how we live, work and exist, has been keeping us down. Now and again we've talked about developing an alternative language - calling ourselves the power source or contributors or community - as as means of deprogramming. So this might be an important piece of the puzzle. Similarly, it seems to me that we must look at our conception of power. I agree with you that creating real democracy means applying a different meaning to the concept of power. We think of power as control, domination, calling the shots. What if that were to change to "building", creating, evolving, things that are of value to the community as as whole? What if we redefined the current conception of power as something undesirable or socially unacceptable - like "abuse" or anti-social behaviour? I hasten to point out that I'm not advocating anything that stifles individuality or initiative. I think those are essential qualities in human beings and play a big role in our collective progress. My sense is that there has to be a redefinition of what power means if we are to try to function in a non-hierarchical world where people who are prone towards controlling behaviour no longer seek power because it doesn't get them what they want. (There are, I think, other ways for them to channel those tendencies towards more productive ends). No question it will take some people who are, as you say, feel more powerful being among the musketeers than ruling over them. I think people like this are out there and they may be the early adapters and trailblazers that are part of any big culture shift. Maybe they are rare or there may be more of them out there than we think. We kind of have to find them, wake them up, get them thinking about how they might be able to light some sparks in whatever workplace, union, community, etc. they're moving around in. Some of us I think have already undertaken some transcendental journeys taht have changed the way we see things and we need to encourage others to do the same - take those trips that take you to another state of mind and enable you to not only envision a world where you become powerful by giving power away but actually doing it. A form of enlightened rebellion - Quote: Revolution is a class action, it is a class struggle. And it is also violent, because those who have power are not going to lose their vested interest easily; it is going to be a bloody, violent struggle in which thousands, sometimes millions of people will die....And the last thing to remember: revolution changes nothing. It is a wheel: One class comes into power, others become powerless. But sooner or later the powerless are going to become the majority, because the powerful don't want to share their power, they want to have it in as few hands as possible. ...When the powerful become the smaller group, the majority throws them away and another power group starts doing the same. That's why I say revolution has never changed anything or in other words, all the revolutions of history have failed. They promised much, but nothing came out of it. I don't preach revolution. I am utterly against revolution. My word for the future and for those who are intelligent enough in the present, is rebellion. What is the difference? Rebellion is individual action. It has nothing to do with the crowd. Rebellion has nothing to do with politics, power, violence. Rebellion has something to do with changing your consciousness, your silence, your being. It is a spiritual metamorphosis. Rebellion is a very silent phenomenon that will go on spreading without making any noise and without even leaving any footprints behind. It will move from heart to heart in deep silences, and the day it has reached to millions of people without any bloodshed, just the understanding of those millions of people will change our old animalistic ways. Enlightened Rebellion, Osho, from Rebels and Devils, The Psychology of Liberation, C. S. Hyatt, Ed. _________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X |
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