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Paul Moist has no ideas
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| Cupe Doll |
Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 5:02 pm
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 69 Location: Toronto |
Sorry WMP -- there's a small avalanche I've got to clear up first. But you've thrown a lot at me to think about. I'll get back in a day or 2...
_________________ www.ultimatecultureclash.com |
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| The Third Element |
Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:41 pm
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Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 363 |
wm pasz wrote: Hmmm....where'd Cupe Doll get to? Damn, I hope I didn't scare her/him off with all that radical talk about democracy. Oh well, it was fun while it lasted. Fun? Quote: fun
/fʌn/ Show Spelled Pronunciation fuhn] noun, verb, funned, fun⋅ning, adjective –noun 1. something that provides mirth or amusement: A picnic would be fun. 2. enjoyment or playfulness: She's full of fun. –verb (used without object), verb (used with object) 3. Informal. joke; kid. –adjective 4. Informal. of or pertaining to fun, esp. to social fun: a fun thing to do; really a fun person. 5. Informal. whimsical: flamboyant: The fashions this year are definitely on the fun side. —Idioms 6. for or in fun, as a joke; not seriously; playfully: His insults were only in fun. 7. like fun, Informal. certainly not; of doubtful truth: He told us that he finished the exam in an hour. Like fun he did! 8. make fun of, to make the object of ridicule; deride: The youngsters made fun of their teacher. I am definitely on a different train than you Wanda. 
_________________ No Beast so fierce knows but some small amount of pity, but I know none and so I am no beast. ~ Richard III |
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| Cupe Doll |
Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:17 pm
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 69 Location: Toronto |
wm pasz wrote: ... Sharyn and I and various others have been floating around the Internet for the past decade now (eek!) promoting the cause of union democracy (and by extension, a more humane, democratized social order)... Hey WMP. Sorry I took so long to get back. Too many fires burning on the dance floor. My reaction to "promoting the cause of union democracy" is YAY! But thinking about it, I get a little dubious. Are unions best suited towards democratic principles? Are not some of the most egregious breaches occurring precisely in union environments? But these are great questions worth pursuing. Exploring if decent answers are possible. And the "cause of union democracy" sure doesn't seem inconsistent with my sense of mission. Not in the least. So I'm definitely interest in learning more -- possibly participating. There's one proviso, though. What I've been struggling to express vis-a-vis my own local -- and the evils of ideology more generally -- takes precedence for me. So my participating in the cause of union democracy has to hinge on how parallel/consistent that turns out to be. If your "union democracy" turns out, in my view, to be defined by some absurd ideology? Well, my participating will have to be by ridicule. 
Hope you think that's fair. And by the way -- I quoted you in my last post. Hope you think that's fair also. See http://ultimatecultureclash.com/2120 _________________ www.ultimatecultureclash.com |
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| Cupe Doll |
Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:15 am
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 69 Location: Toronto |
wm pasz wrote: ... You can get a sense of where we're at by reading the About Us section... Ok, read. Had skimmed before -- but paid attention this time. Fascinating. Very different facts from what I've seen in my local experience -- but also strong parallels. So here's what I'm going to do. I'll start working on "How Undemocratic is CUPE Local 3903?" That's the story CUPE_Reformer also expressed interest in hearing. About what really changed inside 3903 the past few years -- and why it's probably the reason for the mess we're in today. Then we can explore whether union democracy can be redeemed -- if there's even any point -- with reference to your practical experience and mine both. And anyone else's too, for that matter. _________________ www.ultimatecultureclash.com |
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| wm pasz |
Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:15 pm
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Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto |
Sounds like a good plan. Looking forward to hearing more from you.
_________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X |
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| The Third Element |
Posted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:36 pm
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Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 363 |
Military Intelligence
Country Music Jumbo Shrimp Common Difference Constant Change and now: Union Democracy _________________ No Beast so fierce knows but some small amount of pity, but I know none and so I am no beast. ~ Richard III |
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| Cupe Doll |
Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:04 pm
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 69 Location: Toronto |
Yeah. Thought the same self-contradicting lines.
Like, how are labour unions even remotely consistent with anything democratic? From most reading right around here -- what's the most bitter complaining about? Right. Democracy is not what unions are for. But isn't the question whether unions could somehow be reconstituted and redeemed worth asking? Can't unions ever stand for democracy, liberty and justice -- instead of only outmoded ideologies of class warfare? More than the pope, Reagan and the good Taliban -- wasn't it union solidarity that collapsed the old Soviet empire? Maybe it's worth exploring. _________________ www.ultimatecultureclash.com |
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| wm pasz |
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:24 pm
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Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto |
"Union democracy" only has an oxymoronic sound if long as we confine our understanding of "union" to the institutionalized 20th century model of unionism and democracy to the representative model of democracy. Regrettably, few people seem to even be aware that there are other possibilities on both fronts.
Can you democratize an institutionalized 20th century union? Not without uncoupling it from the institutional framework at any rate (as this framework was never intended to allow working people to engage in meaningful democracy within their unions). Also, you would have to look to direct democracy (rather than representative democracy) as a means of guarding against the predictable malaise and corruption that seems to follow any time a group of representatives is entrusted with the power to act on behalf of any group of people. It's a mind-bending concept but one that would have to be explored if we're really interested in democratic anything. Nice web site btw CP. I love the graphics - positively hellish. Are you starting to get reactions - pro, con or in between? _________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X |
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| The Third Element |
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:10 pm
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Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 363 |
By way of identifying further symptoms rather than offering any real solution (sorry?).
Focusing on unions, I think democracy would work just fine, as long as all participants are allowed, encouraged, required, forced to take part in the "democracy" they would work fine. I have number of ideas about *why* they are not but present instead the idea that we are just a few more rules away from improved "union democracy". _________________ No Beast so fierce knows but some small amount of pity, but I know none and so I am no beast. ~ Richard III |
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| SharynS |
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:58 pm
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2883 Location: the 'puter |
Quote: ...present... ...the idea that we are just a few more rules away from improved "union democracy". That is where you're taking us right - handing the democratic wheel lock stock and bodies to employers. You could be onto something though, who among us hard working stiffs wouldn't like it to be over quickly eh. I can't wait to stand corrected. Which "few more rules" are we "away from improved "union democracy""? I am listening. _________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
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| Cupe Doll |
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:38 pm
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Joined: 06 Jan 2010 Posts: 69 Location: Toronto |
[quote="SharynS"] Quote: Which "few more rules" are we "away from improved "union democracy""? I am listening. Just hypothetically? How about making all membership voluntary. Because that too would be a kind of vote. Whether a vote of absolute confidence -- or a vote of total non-confidence. And how about subjecting every motion to secret ballots. And how about having unions protect members from everything illegitimate -- especially undemocratic governance? Just hypothetically. It could make unions truly relevant. It would make them more like genuinely democratic virtual nations. More than what unions have ever before been conceived. Quote: Nice web site btw CP. I love the graphics - positively hellish. Are you starting to get reactions - pro, con or in between? Laugh. There were definitely con reactions. You might have noticed the site's been down past few days. Got hack-attacked so often and so hard, it brought the (huge) service provider to its knees. So the provider locked it down. Don't know if I'll get the site/domain back or not at this stage. _________________ www.ultimatecultureclash.com |
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| wm pasz |
Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:20 pm
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Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto |
You have to do a whole rethink about workplace advocacy and yes, everything would be on the table. So voluntary membership, no more externally-imposed impermeable boundaries between occupational, geographic or other groupings, all those rules and boundaries imposed by the state would have to go flying out the window and essentially the people would decide the boundaries of their constituency and the processes through which they would make decisions and act on those decisions.
This actually could lead to a broader form of democracy - workplace democracy, as there's nothing that should automatically exclude working people from being part of the constituency - even managerial titles or job descriptions. One of the biggest problems with simply tweeking the current model is that with the representative system and everyone holed up in their impermeable institutional boxes (bargaining units) its very tempting for the elected reps to fall into serving themselves rather than serving the members. _________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X |
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| CUPE_Reformer |
Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:44 am
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Joined: 04 Feb 2006 Posts: 239 Location: Real Solidarity |
wm pasz wrote: You have to do a whole rethink about workplace advocacy and yes, everything would be on the table. So voluntary membership, no more externally-imposed impermeable boundaries between occupational, geographic or other groupings, all those rules and boundaries imposed by the state would have to go flying out the window and essentially the people would decide the boundaries of their constituency and the processes through which they would make decisions and act on those decisions. The best model is probably in France. Workplace councils with proportional multi labour union representation (including minority labor union representation). Voluntary membership and dues. I am skeptical about the potential of worker owned and managed workplaces. Worker owned and managed enterprises in Tito's Yugoslavia didn't want to hire workers, because the employed workers wanted to have bigger shares of the profits. Many Yugoslav workers had to leave Yugoslavia to obtain employment. _________________ Real Solidarity |
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| SharynS |
Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:12 pm
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2883 Location: the 'puter |
Worker councils and/or co-determination workplaces appear little more than upgraded versions of existing representative systems. Steps in the opposite direction of a true democracy. They operate within the same oppressive framework and have all the same trappings but with a few added power seats.
_________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
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| wm pasz |
Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:35 pm
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Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto |
If you're in the public sector you're already, in a sense, an "owner" of institution that employs you and because of your membership in the community that is served by the institution. The relationship is not quite the same as that workers in a private enterprise who acquire an ownership stake (although there are some similarities). If more of us realized this relationship between us our public institutions we might actually start doing things that will cause them to work for our communities rather than the bureaucratic gangs that have built comfortable nests for themselves inside the institutional walls.
People don't seem to understand this connection yet democratic governance requires that we recognize ourselves as members of multiple and overlapping constituencies. Another thing that we're going to have to overcome if we want to pursue democracy within the context of employment (whether inside unions or workplaces) is the fossilized carcass of Taylorism and its separation of working humans into management and labour. Democracy means no one group or constituency dominates another in a master-servant kind of relationship. But that's what the labour-management paradigm requires us to accept. It pains me when I hear people clamouring for empowerment on the one hand but out of the other corner of their mouths saying, "But hey, don't involve me in any decision-making, don't ask me to be responsible for more than my assigned tasks." One of the reasons that union democracy is such an elusive goal is that the current paradigm requires workers to adopt the master-servant thing as the natural order of things. This reinforces what author Mark Ames (Going Postal - a great read if you're interested in why people don't revolt not matter how bad things are) called our "inner slave" - a coping mechanism that enables us to adapt to wretched conditions. You don't need to think of yourself as an owner or manager - that's the old autocratic paradigm - but as constituent and contributor which is more in line with the democratic paradigm. _________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X |
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