Home arrow Forums arrow News & Views arrow Workplace Democracy: The Time is Right

Workplace Democracy: The Time is Right

page: prev  1, 2, 3  next
Display posts from previous:
Author Message
wm pasz
Post Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:28 am

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 1219
Location: Toronto
Damn straight Mukus!

Now can we get back to the thread topic?

_________________
Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X
Back to top profile :: pm :: www
markus
Post Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:20 pm

Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 131
Location: Toronto
wm pasz wrote:
Damn straight Mukus!

Now can we get back to the thread topic?


Yes, you may, but one last comment. Sooner or later
Wm pasz, it will become evident to others as it has to
me that self-interest is what motivates your do-nothing
attitude. I'll check back a few months from now
to see that you are exactly where I left you. Doing
nothing and encouraging the do-nothing attitude. Have
a good day.
Back to top profile :: pm
wm pasz
Post Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:23 pm

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 1219
Location: Toronto
Your starting to behave like a forum troll Markus. If you're going to leave us for a few months that may make this warning unnecessary but if you continue to interrupt discussions with irrelevant comments as you have in this case, we will boot you from the site.

_________________
Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X
Back to top profile :: pm :: www
markus
Post Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 4:20 pm

Joined: 06 Jul 2008
Posts: 131
Location: Toronto
I am not trolling. Perhaps you are using trolling
as an excuse to threaten to boot me off the site
as a form censorship because I hit a nerve with you.
An old chinese proverb comes to my mind, "He who strikes the first blow admits he's lost the argument."
Back to top profile :: pm
Laboryes
Post Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 4:51 pm

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 2055
markus wrote:
I still say you guys are all do nothings. Ten years from now you'll
still be writing about the same crap because collectively you would have done absolutely nothing.
And doing nothing ensures that Wm pasz has something to
write about.


Please if you will Markus....do tell what you've have "done" in the past years to work towards building "workplace democracy".

Providing links, documents, videos or pics regarding your activist actions would be helpful in proving that you are the motivated activist you claim everyone here at uncharted isn't!

Seriously I would love to hear/read about your labor struggles that you’ve engaged in the past 5 years or so.

Maybe you can teach us “do nothings” how it’s done eh?

_________________
"When people refuse to obey, then democracy comes alive."
Howard Zinn
Back to top profile :: pm
wm pasz
Post Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:35 pm

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 1219
Location: Toronto
This thread is about Workplace Democracy Markus. If you can read, you should know that. Yet, in numerous posts in this thread, you've said nothing at all about this subject. Your posts are disruptive and distracting. I'm not sure why you even chose to put them in this thread as they clearly have no bearing at all on the subject. If you have nothing to contribute to the discussion, butt out. Your not being censored. For that, you'd have to first say something that expresses an idea. So far I haven't seen that in your posts in this or any other thread. So don't get your shorts in a knot about censorship. What I'm saying to you is quit talking like a dork.

As with any common forum troll, I will ignore your future off-topic posts and now proceed to discuss workplace democracy.

_________________
Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X
Back to top profile :: pm :: www
wm pasz
Post Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:03 pm

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 1219
Location: Toronto
At the risk of drawing Markus back into the conversation (oh well, it might give him a chance to redeem himself), I've been wondering off and on about just what it was the compelled him to post his disparaging comments in this thread in particular.

Could it be that the idea of workplace democracy is frightening in some way to him? I suppose it could be to some people. As much as they express their disdain for the way things are, the one thing they do cling to is the hierarchy. Possibly it gives them something to aspire to, or something to admire. People to look up to and positions to covet. There's a certain bossiness in many people and it comes out in whatever ways it can - whether bullying people at work or disrupting online forums.

I've often marveled at how the most oppressed people will staunchly defend the hierarchical order that oppresses them and mimic oppressive behaviours.

_________________
Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X
Back to top profile :: pm :: www
SharynS
Post Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:09 am

Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 3625
Location: the 'puter
Quote:
their disdain for the way things are, the one thing they do cling to is the hierarchy.
Quote:
I've often marveled at how the most oppressed people will staunchly defend the hierarchical order that oppresses them and mimic oppressive behaviours.
People can only do what they know to do.

I'm sure it's possible, how long it takes and what sequence of events has to happen first but for anything to drastically change, it's going to have to be something like erasing and/or relearning whole cultures. Who wants to go first.

_________________
Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie
Back to top profile :: pm :: e-mail :: www
Laboryes
Post Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:09 am

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 2055
What I find interesting is when asked to “share” some of his/her activist labor struggles there is no reply! So easy to point the finger at others and tell them what they are “not doing” but not so easy to look in the mirror and say “what have I contributed today towards building a better working environment for average working people?”

I find this to be a big problem in my workplace.....people always complaining about how fucked up the current system is treating them, but when asked to participate in something outside the box to challenge the current corporate system they panic and freeze with fear! What’s up with that I wonder?

_________________
"When people refuse to obey, then democracy comes alive."
Howard Zinn
Back to top profile :: pm
prototype
Post Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:16 am

Joined: 19 Jan 2008
Posts: 128
Location: Canada
Pasz -

This is my reply to what you started here

I thought it would be less invasive to Creekside's postings if we don't take up too much space on her CUPE thread debating subjects, namely workplace democracy, and hierarchies, which have already been covered in many other places on this forum, including this particular thread. We all get it, and don't have to be constantly reminded that there are other alternatives to the current organizational structures 'out there'.

We know there are other possibilities to improve unions for workers, or even perhaps replace them with something better.

You said -
Quote:
"There's an alternative to "taking back your union" that you all really should consider: Ignoring your institutionally-entrenched union and starting your own ad hoc or informal workplace organizations that basically operate outside the labour relations system."

You also said -
Quote:

"Imagine forming a small group with your co-workers - informal, democratic, egalitarian, nobody has to kiss anybody's ass or tow any party lines. Everybody's welcome and included. The group meets as needed to discuss whatever issues are of interest and then approaches management - whatever level is willing to listen - with concerns and proposed remedies."


Yea, I suggested a similar remedy at the BC Human Rights Tribunal, during my own case, which was to start a Human Rights Committee at the school district.

Unfortunately, neither the school district I worked for, my CUPE local, nor the Tribunal went for the idea. None of them liked the idea of the worker having some control. Too scary, apparently.

You can read that remedy at the end of this posting.

You said -
Quote:
"Face it, if you became a leader of your big institutionalized union (assuming you were able to miraculously avoid trusteeship, expulsion, even termination of employment), chances are good you'd get sucked into the bureaucratic vortex before too long - just like the guys you threw out of office."

"So it ain't gonna happen." ..........

You also said -
Quote:
"Really people, taking back a CUPE local is a non-starter (look what happened to this very democratic very militant local. If CUPE national slapped these guys with trusteeship, what do you think they'll do to your local should you ever get elected? The other problem is, of course, that if you did get elected, you'd spend most of your time fighting off efforts from other wannabes to sabotage you - that's why the odd well-intentioned reformer who manages to get a few steps ahead, quickly jumps into the sack with the parent union and with the employer."


By writing that you seem to presume that everyone's rotten and corrupt, bar none. And you presume that everyone who wants to reform a union wants to be the leader.

You presume too much.

Did it ever dawn on you that calling public attention to corruption can also help cause positive changes?

As for the link you provided -

I've read it and am familiar with CUPE locals being put under administration by CUPE national.

CUPE national is a strange organization. They claim that CUPE locals are autonomous, and therefore CUPE national can't interfere in the running of the locals, including actively helping individual local members. Yet CUPE national can apparently swoop in and take over the local, for whatever reason. CUPE national also seems to have no problems paying locals back for political donations locals have made. So much for local autonomy. I've also heard that CUPE national pays back locals for legal fees that the locals incur if a union member takes the local to court or other legal jurisdiction. So, CUPE national doesn't help the individual member, but CUPE national helps the local if the abandoned member takes the local to court.

I think CUPE national can be challenged in court regarding all that. CUPE national has been having it both ways for too many years, to the detriment of too many CUPE members.


This is the one of the remedies I presented to the school district, my CUPE local, and the BC Human Rights Tribunal -
Quote:
EXHIBIT 103

I'd like to form a Human Rights Committee for employees of the school district.

The Human Rights Committee should be comprised of at least 8 people and women must be comprised (at the least) of the same percentage as the percentage of women in the bargaining unit.

As long as a casual seniority list exists at least 2 casual employees should sit on the committee. If a casual seniority list no longer exists at least 2 of the people on the committee must be part-time employees.

The Human Rights Committee would include formulating an internal appeal process for people who don't get satisfaction from the school district or the union regarding grievances.

The Human Rights Committee must be officially recognized by the Coquitlam School District and CUPE Local 561.

The Human Rights Committee will be not be influenced by either the school district nor the union. It must be autonomous with its only mandate being to protect and further Human Rights for employees of the school district.

The Human Rights Committee must be allowed to meet during working hours at least once a month, for at least 2 hours, at a location within the school district. No member of the committee will lose wages, or any job perks or rights as a result of attending the Human Rights Committee meetings.

The Human Rights Committee will have the right to make any recommendations, which will be official and recorded, to the school district or union that would further the human rights of employees of the Coquitlam School District.

The Human Rights Committee will make a minimum of quarterly reports to the school district and the union.

The Human Rights Committee will make 6 month reports to the BC Human Rights Tribunal for at least two years.

In order to let the employees at SD43 know there is a Human Rights Committee being formed there should be a 1 page information sheet distributed to every school and work location within the district. The sheet will call for volunteers to sit on the committee.

Members of the Human Rights Committee will be allowed to take training, at the school district's expense,


Back to top profile :: pm
SharynS
Post Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:00 pm

Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 3625
Location: the 'puter
PT I must almost whole heartedly disagree, yet another committee scares the hell out of me. Unless people change the way they approach their own workplace situations - and labour processes - then we will ultimately always end up in the same place. Small token compensations not withstanding. The system is that warped. I do agree that not everyone is corrupt. That should be the biggest clue as to how warped the system is. Even the well intentioned aren't impacting results from inside the beast.

The stats seem to indicate it's mostly women falling victim to the existing structure. So since women comprise the hog share of workplace injustice, complaints etc., - add to that they make up a majority of service industry "membership" then - if we thought about it in those terms - reform or change should be as f**king simple as simply doing it.

It would involve bottom (of the rung) up and it would involve effecting what happens - or what doesn't happen - in a workplace. Given that mass conditioning is probably the worst enemy, it's essential that any such attempt to control our surroundings to at least have one strong and determined root to get change off the ground. Some would say it requires strong leadership but it's doesn't. People don't need to be lead, it's more about a place to begin, a root. From there it's hands on and very much a learn as you go process.

_________________
Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie
Back to top profile :: pm :: e-mail :: www
creekside
Post Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 6:28 pm

Joined: 30 Oct 2009
Posts: 23
If there is no recourse for union members and no point in arguing with LRB or Human Rights Tribunals (for the best part) then I would think that the only recourse is to form a Human Rights Committee. It makes more sense and actually, wouldn't it present itself as a 'watchdog'?
Back to top profile :: pm
SharynS
Post Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 7:08 pm

Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 3625
Location: the 'puter
Each and every shift - in my proposed people responsive work sites - is the committee. The system - at whichever level - is geared to a concrete - a committee of 3 - a representative of etc.. It could not withstand (for long) the weight of an unknown. Please remember I'm referring to a bottom up structural influence.

_________________
Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie
Back to top profile :: pm :: e-mail :: www
creekside
Post Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:14 pm

Joined: 30 Oct 2009
Posts: 23
Who actually pays the wages for a union president? When executive members take time out of their 'jobs' (and they do a lot which makes me wonder who they expect to be filling their positions when they aren't there) for grievances, union business, etc. - does the employer pay their wages or do our membership dues?

Many of us don't understand this.
Back to top profile :: pm
SharynS
Post Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:43 pm

Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 3625
Location: the 'puter
is this about reform or about getting your money's worth?

_________________
Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie
Back to top profile :: pm :: e-mail :: www
Home arrow Forums arrow News & Views arrow Workplace Democracy: The Time is Right
Page 2 of 3
page: prev  1, 2, 3  next
Display posts from previous:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group