Home
Forums
Your Union
The Whole World Is Rioting - Why Aren't We?
Forums
Your Union
The Whole World Is Rioting - Why Aren't We?
The Whole World Is Rioting - Why Aren't We?
| page: prev 1, 2 | |
| Author | Message |
|---|---|
| wm pasz |
Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 4:23 pm
|
|
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto |
There's certainly something very systematic to what's happened. I'm not sure that it's a conspiracy in the sense that a bunch of guys got together and schemed it all up step by step. More likely it's just the next phase of an exploitative system that can't help but eat everything it encounters. Sort of like the "end times" of the corporatist faith where the beast, having laid waste to most of the world, now starts devouring those in its neighbourhood. This is so sad. There's so much misery now in America that it's painful to watch it.
I saw a 20/20 segment last night about the impoverished people of the Appalachian region. These people have been reduced to living like animals. They're drugged up on oxycontin, their kids live on carbonated beverages, they look like people from out of some other era. It's worse than the 1930's. It's like we've regressed into Dickensian times and everybody's walking around pretending they don't notice. But the captains of industry continue to rake in millions and - I still don't understand how people don't see the oxymoronism of this - now have their fingers in the state treasury, soaking up what's left of the people's money! It makes me absolutely want to retch. I'm not sure that we are in danger of sprouting a fascist regime. Teh GWB era is about as close to fascism as you can get without the jackboots and goose-stepping. Germans were not rioting in the streets when Hitler came to power. Yes they were achingly poor and living in an economic meltdown but what brought Hitler to power were his promises to restore prosperity. His anti-Semitism and racism were just a way of connecting with a certain demographic in German society but it was the economy that made him a hero (even Germans who were put off by his megalomania were enthralled with the economic miracle that he brought about - with the help of the captains of industry - in the 1930's). The problem with such a thing happening today in the US is that nobody can fix the economy by employing the traditional theories and methods. The only viable economic fix will involve chucking the whole corporatist model and coming up with something more humane and community-centered. The corporatist beast has bitten off too much for any return to normalcy to be possible. Now, it could still happen that some megalomaniac could come of our the bushes and attempt to gain a following by preaching hate and destruction (there are plenty of them lurking in the weeds at the republican party) but I'm not sure that he'd gain much traction. For one thing, Americans have a strong cultural connection to democracy. We haven't practiced it in any meaningful way for decades but it's a strongly held value in our society. For another, we've been put off by the anti-democratic nonsense practiced by the Bush regime to a point where hate mongering is unlikely to appeal to a lot of people (Obama's election was a strong repudiation of this crap). If you look at other nations that have fallen victim to fascist dictators, you'll find that none had a strong democratic tradition - most had been ruled by kings and other autocrats so the idea of strong autocratic leaders had a certain mass appeal. The other consideration is that Obama himself represents a world of possibilities and opportunities to explore new directions and ideas. What people need to get their heads around though is that nothing is going to happen if they just sit around and wait for him to do something. He's not a radical and on many levels has his feet firmly planted in the world as we know it. He is, however, someone who would not be averse to exploring new ideas or even (I believe) funding or otherwise supporting new types of enterprise. I think there will be a lot of opportunity for this in the not too distant future when it becomes apparent that the bailouts have not worked and that the old ideas are of no value or help. What needs to happen is that people need to start talking about these alternatives NOW. _________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X |
| Back to top | profile :: pm :: www |
| skywalker |
Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:23 pm
|
|
Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 592 Location: California |
wm pasz wrote: Now, it could still happen that some megalomaniac could come out of our the bushes and attempt to gain a following by preaching hate and destruction (there are plenty of them lurking in the weeds at the republican party) There not just in the Republican party...... They are even in places like the Secret Service and in the highest levels of the American Military. So if they really want to, they can put a stop to this uthopian dream at the snap of their finger. So while I like Obama, I fully understand that he will only be able to do what the real folks in charge will allow him to do and nothing more.IMHO _________________ Seek the Truth |
| Back to top | profile :: pm |
| Pearson |
Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2009 9:09 pm
|
|
Joined: 03 Feb 2006 Posts: 1417 Location: Sun City AZ |
Skywalker: Check your pm's please.
BP. _________________ If we don't do it, who will? |
| Back to top | profile :: pm :: e-mail |
| atuuschaaw |
Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:47 am
|
|
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 781 Location: an ahwangan |
First, once the bong's contents are spent, and there is nothing but seeds and stems left...reality again seeps back in. The reality? There is no such thing as utopia! During this juncture in history, there will be no shift to socialism here in the states under the system currently in place. The best the people can expect will be much greater transparency and accountability in my humble opinion. At this point in my life cycle, those two are enough for me! I mean, I have never seen either used very much within a democratic system, so I'm thinking let's see what it looks like...turn on the lights and see which bugs scramble! Of course there is a catch to this new transparency and accountability that many will not like. It will apply not only to the people within the structures and systems in place, but to every individual as well. The people can not expect transparency and accountability within the corpolitical structures if they aren't willing to wear the suit themselves. Just how bad do you want change?
Some hard liner conservatives will label this move toward transparency and accountability another attempt at socialism...and the extreme liberal population will screem it's not enough and it's just another way to prop up failed capitalism. Just my humble opinion of course, but from where I sit, both the capitalist and socialist systems suck! Neither is sustainable, even if either were really obtainable. We have to use a different part of our brains...we must get out of the ruts created by those who have driven this road before us. Until we get out of those ruts, we have no choice but to go where others have already gone...and we know where that leads! Here is a little futuristic prediction from an author we have discussed a few times before...Alvin Toffler. According to Alvin Toffler's theory of the Third Wave (1980), the industrial economic system saw the corporation grow up based on national markets, national currencies, and national governments. This nation-based infrastructure, however, is utterly unable to regulate or contain the new transnational and electronic currency bubble. Now the entire global framework that once stabilized world trade relations for the giant corporations is crumbling and in danger of coming apart. Toffler states that the dollar will be dethroned and the world economy will go through jerks and spasms quite similar to the dying rattles of the millions of people their system has destroyed. Toffler also predicts that after these preliminary effects, corporations will have no wish to relinquish corporate power, and will continue to battle for profits, production, and personal advancement. However, faced with soaring levels of unpredictability, with mounting public criticism and hostile political pressures, the managers of the corporate systems will begin to question the goals, structure, and responsibility of their organizations. Toffler mentions the redefining of the corporation. The corporate identity crisis will deepen due to emergence of a worldwide movement demanding not merely modest changes in corporate policy, but a deep definition of it's purposes. In the past, critics of the corporations leveled their scrutiny on the entities, but they were willing to accept the corporations per their own definitions. The critics of old shared the view of the corporations as an inherently economic institution. Today, we see the corporation's critics attack them for their artificial divorce of economics from politics, morality, and other dimensions of life. The corporations are being held responsible for not just their economic failures, but also their links to pollution, poisoning, racism, sexism, and their deceptions of the populations of our world. Toffler also mentions the Third Wave will bring with it a rising demand for a new kind of institution altogether. He speaks of a corporation that will no longer be responsible for only profit and the making of goods, but one that will contribute to the solution of extremely complex ecological, moral, political, racial, sexual, and social problems. The corporations prodded by criticism, legislation, and it's own concerned executives, will become a multipurpose institution. _________________ "Speaking the truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." George Orwell |
| Back to top | profile :: pm :: e-mail :: www |
| gordon |
Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:13 am
|
|
Joined: 11 Sep 2008 Posts: 69 |
Now several years gone by, Pete Peterson wrote that book "Race to the bottom", remember? In the early 1980s the wealth gap started to explode, Reagan broke the Air Traffic Controllers Union, remember? The middle class found they needed to send the wife to work to keep up "with the Jones". Now females are larger than the male work force.A decade of stagnant wages meant credit cards to stay "status quo".We know the rest. I read the US wealth gap is now like the 3rd highest in the world, behind Mexico (and ?)This isn't a conspiracy? The Madoff ripoff seems like just rewards, but bear in mind how it happened.The investigator at the SEC of Madoff complaints MARRIED MADOFF'S NEICE! Not a conspiracy? How about that 23% of the Federal Reserve OWNERS FAMILIES had money with Madoff? Or that behind the scenes in Congress they are secretly trying to find a way to insert a bailout by making the SIPC insurance NO LIMIT, RETROACTIVELY.
As for our union ability to reclaim a living wage, Fox News rant the other day was "UNION MEMBERSHIP SOARING!"(bullcrap!) This is the new scare tactic, the "Union Blob" will swallow you and take away your secret vote,& all not a conspiracy to kill the Union Cardcheck law? The American Chamber of Commerce is the largest anti-worker/union lobbyist in Washington. Trace it to them. Not a conspiracy that Halliburton's/KBR was given a contract to build "detention centers" all around US cities, in the guise of needing them for illegal/immigration issues? Remember, after Hurricane Katrina, the white folk were protected by Blackwater security, the ones in Iraq/Afganistan. They told them to prepare for a way to protect the rich if "anything" like this happens again. (firearms/ammunition are in short supply now also) Those conspiratorial powers are using Obama & plotting behind his back, as they are ramping up the war propaganda for AFGANISTAN. Fox News, leading the charge, as they did in the selling of the Iraq invasion, renting retired Cols, offered up by the Pentagon, they just gave the troops an ok to destroy any opium they see, (read: WAR ON DRUGS now!) shades of Columbia? Gen. Patreaus said yesterday "Iran is helping in supplying the Taliban..." (read: AFGANISTAN IS REALLY ABOUT CONTAINING IRAN!) not a conspiracy? |
| Back to top | profile :: pm |
| wm pasz |
Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:24 pm
|
|
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto |
I think you are right A about the notion of individual accountability and the importance of reflection about who we really are and what we're about. This I think is what will separate the people from the sheeple.
It's people - individuals - after all, that have made this world a mess and people - individuals working with other individuals that can save it. We have to get our heads around this and stop thinking of ourselves as the helpful victims of organizations and mysterious forces. I don't think there is a conspiracy per se on the part of corporations, government, military, unions, etc although it can easily seem that way. What we have a whole bunch of people acting in their own self-interest. There are so many that they sometimes collaborate on specific ventures that benefit many of them. Because the numbers of the self-interested have grown large, they have become very influential and are able to get their way because around every corner, in every institution there's another scheming self-interested colleague who's willing to do a little mutual back-scratching. They also ignore anything that doesn't affect them personally. This is why many Wall Street high flyers suspected (or knew) about the Madoff ponzi scheme but did nothing about. It didn't affect them personally so who cares. In fact, some probably thought they could learn a thing or two from Madoff that would help them line their own pockets further. Each of these people is in effect a "conspiracy of one". When they team up they appear to be a well-oiled machine but really they aren't capable of the kind of long-term collaborative relationships that would be required to effect a global conspiracy of some sort over a long period of time (self-interest precludes these kinds of long term collaborations). This notion of self-interest has been promoted for centuries - ever since Adam Smith theorized that it was a good thing and would lead to a better, more balanced civilization. What isn't widely understood is that Smith assumed a society of self-interested equals - people who were on level playing field and would keep each other honest (and so excesses of self-interest would be neutralized). But Adams never foresaw the grossly uneven societal playing field that evolved in the decades after his death. He warned against excesses, greed and concentrations of power without realizing how quickly these would develop. Self-interest is at the root of all of our problems because you have millions of these self-interested conspiracies of one roaming the earth and laying waste to it. They hide behind the facades of organizations which are really just artificial constructs that have no life or capability of action on their own. And we, the rest of us, stupidly believe that it's these organizations that are wrecking our lives. Instead of putting the blame on the individuals inside of them who are making the decisions, calling the shots and acting in their own self-interest. Or lining up in front of other organizations and saying "please help us", "do something for us" - oblivious to the fact that it's only an empty shell that we're pleading with - we need to be cornering the people inside that shell and personally holding them accountable, getting in their faces and saying, "Why won't you, John Smith, do the right thing for us?" Oon of the interesting things that we've been led to believe in our dealings with organizations is that you can't make it personal. Never hold anyone personally accountable for an organizational decision. That's not right somehow. It's not professional or respectful. Well the reality is that that's the only way you'll ever get anything done. Organization men (and women) love to hide behind the organizational facade. It absolves them of accountability - everything they do, is the organization's decision, it's what the organization wants them to do. They're doing it on the organization's behalf. But this is a lot of BS. They're they ones making the conscious decisions and calling the shots. To believe otherwise is to believe that wars are started when one piece of land invades another piece of land. How to counter the self-interested conspiracies of one? I think you have to start to think of yourself as the exact opposite - be a community-interested conspiracy of one. I don't think we need to riot (going back to the subject of this thread). That's destructive. Why would we want to destroy what's in our community? That just helps the self-interested conspiracies of one. We need to take back the community and start nurturing it back to health. Rather than destroying buildings and setting fire to things, conspirators could join forces to take those things over and use them for the benefit of the community. Just some further thoughts. _________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X |
| Back to top | profile :: pm :: www |
| gordon |
Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 9:38 pm
|
|
Joined: 11 Sep 2008 Posts: 69 |
good post, Wm. All these homeowners who are underwater are STILL being led like sheeple. You see, the gov't wants them to stay in their home, even if it's worth $100K less.They will NEVER get even. The circumstances that allowed the housing bubble will never repeat. They should be told that TIME is their only asset.Walk away, rent and rebuild your savings. 60% default AGAIN after they lowered the payment the first time. Most will NOT get the principal lowered (forgiven)or qualify because the payment is already 40-50% of their income BUT MANY HAVE 30% more of their monthly income taken up in credit card/auto debt. They are losing time. They should be looking to rent for 1/2 and start saving money, the hell w/ credit rating now. The gov't should be telling them the truth, and forming investor-participation alliances, where someone with CASH comes in and takes part ownership and they stay, but split any profits if sold after 5 years. In the early 1990s our homes in So. California went down 35%, NOBODY LENT A FINGER! In fact, the Repubs gave (Democratic) California the finger.Took 8 yrs to make that up. Buyers at the top are NOT GOING TO MAKE 10%/YEAR in gains over 10 years. It may be 20 years before they gain $100K back, assuming home prices stop falling.(Not until 2010 earliest)
|
| Back to top | profile :: pm |
| SharynS |
Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:43 am
|
|
Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2939 Location: the 'puter |
Quote: One of the interesting things that we've been led to believe in our dealings with organizations is that you can't make it personal. However I think people are conditioned that no matter how much blood they've lost, it's not nice to strike back. I think people believe, have been led to believe, that turning cheek is necessary to transition to a more civilized future. And it would be, if we hadn't missed a whole whack of steps, all the necessary components weren't missing and if the civil system as is wasn't the constructed rouse that it is. We're not rioting because we think we'll just make it worse. _________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
| Back to top | profile :: pm :: e-mail :: www |
| skywalker |
Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:31 pm
|
|
Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 592 Location: California |
SharynS wrote: However I think people are conditioned that no matter how much blood they've lost, it's not nice to strike back. And if you do even remotely try to strike back....not even in a physical way but rather just in a verbal way...or even as an angry blogger...they declare you unfit to be around "Normal" people and in need of immediate....Anger Management therapy. So people have been conditioned to toe the line in all sorts of ways. If this keeps up, there will reach a point that our freedom of speech will be outlawed. It's the next scary step in this evolution of trying to make a kindler and gentler society and to where the Power hungry tyrants have seized this opportunity to further expand their control over the masses. There will be a very few people in charge.....and the slaves(all the rest of us) doing their bidding in total comformity or else off you go to the mind modification camp. If we choose to control behavior or speech that offends us we will do so at the risk of loosing that very Right for ourselves and our loved ones. That is why that regardless of how bad we may disagree with someone's point of view, we should never, and I mean never resort to squashing their right to speak freely, loudly and at times even brutally honest,offensive and with out regard to any form of political correctness if necessary to make their voice heard. Granted, I fully understand that all organizations have a current responsibility to protect themselves against potential lawsuits. That is of course the reality we currently live in. This is why we need to promote and pass laws that give us more free speech Rights and not jump on board this band wagon that hopes to curtail public speaking on the airwaves, the blogs, the Plasma TVs etc. Total free Speech sometimes offends us and sometimes it offends me.......but the alternative is to live under a tyranical dictatorship. And do any of us really want that? _________________ Seek the Truth |
| Back to top | profile :: pm |
| wm pasz |
Posted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 8:18 pm
|
|
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto |
Very true, free speech is important. There are limits though. I'm not sure that I would support no limits at all. I mean, if someone wants to go about preaching hate or calling for the extermination of certain people, I think they should get the smack down for that.
I can't help but notice how few people actually exercise this right and those that do use it or use it. _________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X |
| Back to top | profile :: pm :: www |
Home
Forums
Your Union
The Whole World Is Rioting - Why Aren't We?
Forums
Your Union
The Whole World Is Rioting - Why Aren't We?
|
Page 2 of 2
page: prev 1, 2 |
||