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Boxing, Amateur and Pro

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BZelley
Post Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:05 pm

Joined: 05 Dec 2008
Posts: 26
Location: Canada 		Without a doubt Sugar Ray Robinson is the greatest boxer of all time
with the likes of Henry Armstrong and Roberto Duran high on the top ten list.

Like any activity, there is the dark side of amateur and professional sports
and special interests and politics play a key part to the ugly side of sports
such as boxing.

In Canadian Amateur Boxing, only one boxer represented Canada
due in part to funding cuts. That is a disgrace. How many can
step back in time when Canada always had a good team to compete
such as in LA in 1984 or 1988 with the gold medal victory by
Lennox Lewis.

There are many questions that need to be asked by those
making the funding decisions.
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SharynS
Post Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:48 pm

Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 2883
Location: the 'puter 		Welcome to uncharted BZelley. I'm impressed you found the old Findlay threads. What a long road for Dick and no end in sight. He's still standing eh.

A couple dark sides if you ask me. I've yet to figure out how punching someone silly is a sport. An ego, a little steroids and a desire to train hard and long enough to beat the crap out of someone else and voila you could be champ.

Would you happen to have some examples of the dark side you're talking about?

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BZelley
Post Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:21 pm

Joined: 05 Dec 2008
Posts: 26
Location: Canada 		[quote="siggy"]Welcome to uncharted BZelley. I'm impressed you found the old Findlay threads. What a long road for Dick and no end in sight. He's still standing eh.

A couple dark sides if you ask me. I've yet to figure out how punching someone silly is a sport. An ego, a little steroids and a desire to train hard and long enough to beat the crap out of someone else and voila you could be champ.

Would you happen to have some examples of the dark side you're talking about?[/quote]

There are internal and external factors that must be considered.

For amateur boxing in Canada, an obvious external issue is the lack of funding in recent years.
On the internal side, there are many factors that have a negative impact.
One critical area is the lack of public awareness. For instance, if one
was to check the CABA, Boxing Canada web site, there is limited
appreciation for the history of the sport.
Likewise, in the Boxing BC site, there is no detailed history of the sport.
There have been thousands of participants over the years, but sadly
there are thousands of untold stories concerning the highlights
throughout the decades.

For instance, in 1980, there was a revival of The Diamond Belt
tournament that took place in Victoria, BC. Previously, there were
Diamond Belt Tournaments in Vancouver in 1967 and 1968.
Of interest, in 1967 a guest referee was former undefeated
heavyweight champion Rocky Marciano. Sadly, highlights of
the 1967 tournament is not found on any official amateur boxing
web site. One of the boxers from Victoria to compete was
heavyweight Bill Taylor. After the bouts, Taylor went on to win
the Canadian Amateur heavyweight title.

In 1968, the guest referee of the tournament was Canada's own Jimmy McLarnin, the former world welterweight champion. The tournament
also served as the BC Olympic Trials.

Of interest, one of the Vancouver boxers to see Diamond Belt action was
Dick Findlay who is featured elsewhere re his battles over work related
issues. I also saw action in the 1967 and 1968 boxing tournaments,
but that's another story..

One key historical fact is CABA was not formed until 1969, before 1970,
Canadian amateur boxing was supervised by the
"Amateur Athletic Union of Canada". So what does that do for the pre-1970
activity regarding the fair reporting of historical highlights Question
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SharynS
Post Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:52 pm

Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 2883
Location: the 'puter
Quote:
In most states, an assault/battery is committed when one person 1) tries to or does physically strike another, or 2) acts in a threatening manner to put another in fear of immediate harm. Many states declare that a more serious or "aggravated" assault/battery occurs when one 1) tries to or does cause severe injury to another,...
...with one exception I take it. When there's money to be made then assault and battery is a sport?

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BZelley
Post Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:21 pm

Joined: 05 Dec 2008
Posts: 26
Location: Canada
siggy wrote:
Quote:
In most states, an assault/battery is committed when one person 1) tries to or does physically strike another, or 2) acts in a threatening manner to put another in fear of immediate harm. Many states declare that a more serious or "aggravated" assault/battery occurs when one 1) tries to or does cause severe injury to another,...
...with one exception I take it. When there's money to be made then assault and battery is a sport?



Using legal definitions to slam a sport is as absurd as using the same definition to slam the USA military in Iraq.

Siggy, it appears you are not a boxing or fight fan.
When one steps into the ring, they are fully aware of the risks.
Likewise when the military, that protects your freedoms,
steps into a war zone, the legal mumbo jumbo concerning
assault is not an issue of high importance.

Could you imagine if our fathers, grandfathers or great-grandfathers
that participated in WW I and II got caught-up in a legal definition
of assault and battery before some of the important but deadly battles such as
the one at Ortona, or Juno Beach, or Vimy Ridge.
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BZelley
Post Posted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:49 pm

Joined: 05 Dec 2008
Posts: 26
Location: Canada 		The sport of boxing has had its share of tragedies such as
the Emile Griffith vs Benny Kid Paret title bout that was well documented in the
film by Dan Klores and Ron Berger: "Ring Of Fire The Emile Griffith Story'"
but compared to other sports such as football, Skiing or Auto Racing,
or occupations like nursing and logging boxing is a safe sport.
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Mulligan
Post Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:10 am

Joined: 04 Feb 2006
Posts: 358
Location: Ground Zero
Quote:
Using legal definitions to slam a sport is as absurd as using the same definition to slam the USA military in Iraq.


Welcome to uncharted indeed, BZelley.

Yep, Sugar Ray Robinson was the all time champ. Any body that could step into a fight ring six times with the likes of Jake LaMotta and come out a winner had to be the best.
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SharynS
Post Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 1:56 pm

Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 2883
Location: the 'puter
Quote:
Using legal definitions to slam a sport is as absurd as using the same definition to slam the USA military in Iraq.
Lights going on, cool.

Sorry people, if anything is true, it would be that you can't have your cake and eat it too. A crime is a crime is a crime. There's no logical way to separate crime activity. It's that mentality - that somehow, if you call the cake by a different name, you can have both - which confuses the hell out of the best of us.

The people you've mentioned aren't heroes, they're victims of that mentality. I respect them for their personal commitment and their physical success but certainly not because they used both attrubute's to 'slam' the crap out of another human being.

You all may need some time to think that through. No problem, take all the time you need.

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Mulligan
Post Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:26 pm

Joined: 04 Feb 2006
Posts: 358
Location: Ground Zero
Quote:
…they're victims of that mentality


There, there. Yes, I know. In the liberal universe, everyone is a ‘victim’ of something.

In this instance it’s the sport of boxing. Boxers are victims because of a certain ‘mentality.’

What about football players? Those guys get to bash each other for mega bucks don’t they? Hockey players? Racecar drivers?

Could it be that some men are just natural born warriors who relish the give-and-take of physical combat?
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SharynS
Post Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:48 pm

Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 2883
Location: the 'puter
Quote:
Could it be that some men are just natural born warriors who relish the give-and-take of physical combat?
The point exactly Mull, well done eh. The point you may have missed though, is that it might behoove civilization - if civilization is the goal - to call a spade a spade and to stop fooling ourselves. If we're a combative bunch then let's admit we're a combative bunch. The fool's game may work in some areas but overall I think it simply keeps populations preoccupied and away from the real prize. Until that's cleared away and truths emerge then civilization will remain meted by those contolling the system and according to their personal convictions.

You want to wait and hope that's you're prerogative but don't call those who don't the idealists. Wink

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Mulligan
Post Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:40 pm

Joined: 04 Feb 2006
Posts: 358
Location: Ground Zero 		We are a combative bunch, and I think there is ample evidence that we have realized that as a fact.

Quote:
Until that's cleared away…


Until what’s cleared away? Human nature?
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SharynS
Post Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 5:30 pm

Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 2883
Location: the 'puter
Quote:
Human nature?
Selective reason at best Mull. As you well know and seem intent on ignoring, is that there's also ample evidence, and an entire history of human behavioral advancement to show that humans are capable of choosing, changing and/or" keeping human nature in check. I think the "evidence" also shows that that process has been and still is manipulated by money players. You can fool some of the people some of the time and - apparently - you can fool a lot of people for a long time.

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Mulligan
Post Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:22 pm

Joined: 04 Feb 2006
Posts: 358
Location: Ground Zero
Quote:
…keeping human nature in check


(Sigh) OK, I have a feeling that I know where this is going to end up, but I’ll give it another try.

Yes, we have laws in society that punish personal assault. But since the sport of boxing works on the principle of agreeing to compete in one-on-one episodes of physical combat under certain rules and conditions defined by the state in question –that’s not considered assault in any criminal, legal sense.

So you’re saying that because such one-on-one combat episodes (boxing matches) are presented to the public for financial considerations –that is an exploitation, -a victimization as it were, of those to whom that mentality appeals.

(Whew) I’m glad I explained what you were talking about, Sig. Got it!

So by the same measure, hiring a pipe fitter, or a grocery employee to do a job for the consideration of payment of money -amounts to the same thing, does it not?

In that sense you’re being exploited (victimized) because you have agreed to expend your ability to perform labor in exchange for money, are you not?

Karl Marx would agree with you in no uncertain terms. But I… uh, would find the thinking here a little flawed.
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SharynS
Post Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 8:54 pm

Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 2883
Location: the 'puter 		Funny, I think I know where this is not going (eh/oi).
Quote:
But since the sport of boxing works on the principle of agreeing to compete in one-on-one episodes of physical combat under certain rules and conditions defined by the state in question
Try that on the street Mull - without a license, adequate billing and/or without adhering to the money chain. All I ask is that you let us know when and where.
Quote:
..that’s not considered assault in any criminal, legal sense.
And there inlies the basic inconsistency, the myth, the manipulation.
Quote:
So by the same measure, hiring a pipe fitter, or a grocery employee to do a job for the consideration of payment of money -amounts to the same thing, does it not?
That's right. But notice also that it's all within "the legal sense". Unless you can come up with a relevant rule which outright outlaws this archaic ritual or conflicts the practice, as does the assault legislation, then I don't see the relevance. Ironically, the fact that there really is no law against it is relevant. For another time, but quite relevant.

But my marxist traits aside for now, laws and rules are a construct of man - subject to human nature, subject to human error - subject to period! Unquestionable? even you don't believe that Mull.

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Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie
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BZelley
Post Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 8:56 pm

Joined: 05 Dec 2008
Posts: 26
Location: Canada 		Any discussion of boxing for money falls by the wayside when it comes to
amateur boxing. Since the formation of CABA (Boxing Canada) there have been major improvements in safety standards including proper headgear,
gloves, medical precautions, mandatory coaching education, effective training
for referes etc.

Amateur boxing is likely safer than diving and soccer concerning head injuries.
One could argue any sport is an assault on ones own body, but in some
cases without the pain there can be no gain.

In an Op-Ed piece that I had in a 1992 or 1993 issue of the 'TIMES COLONIST
it was titled "Counterpunch for boxing" By Brian Zelley, B. Com, C A.

It was in defence of the sport
leading up to the 1994 Commonwealth Games. Without getting into
all of the medical issues and research one of my points on the second
paragraph was:

"Amateur boxing has been bruised from within by internal politics
of the sport and a lack of a viable community awareness of the
benefits of the sport in British Columbia. However, it has been
the never-ending battering of the sport of boxing by the
anti-boxing brigade that throws roadblocks into the path of those
attempting to obtain public acceptance of a misunderstood sport."

The 11th and last paragraph was as follows:

"Some of the negative images of professional boxing will guarantee
that the call to ban boxing will continue. However, the violence
of boxing is a controlled and socially acceptable activity.
The anti-boxing zealots would better serve society by
putting their negative energy into building society by
reducing poverty, racism and crime." - Zelley.

The newspaper included a file photo of the first
women's amateur boxing match sanctioned in Canada
at Sydney, Nova Scotia, July 29, 1991.
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