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Boxing, Amateur and Pro
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| Mulligan |
Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:55 pm
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Joined: 04 Feb 2006 Posts: 358 Location: Ground Zero |
But Sig, we’re not talking about “out on the street.” Try and stay on track here. BZelley started the thread by specifying legalized boxing –pro or amateur. The fact is that under given state laws and conditions –boxing in a ring for money, or not for money, is legal.
Quote: …inconsistency, the myth, the manipulation The inconsistency of what? Either it is or it isn’t legal. Where’s the inconsistency? If you fight on the street you get arrested. If you fight in a legal ring, you participate in a sporting event. If there’s a public demand for pro or amateur boxing events and you have what it takes to box an opponent in those events, then it’s your choice whether or not you actually do or don’t. Manipulation? Are you being manipulated when you hire on to Safeway because Safeway provides food in exchange for money according to public demand? No, you need a job to support yourself and your family. If you’re qualified to work in a grocery store, Safeway (or whatever) can supply that job to you according to the demand for labor. You get a job out of the deal if there is a demand for labor. Quote: …relevant rule which outright outlaws this archaic ritual… That’s a matter of subjectivity on your part. To you it’s an “archaic ritual.” To lots of other people it’s a public sport that is legally regulated like all other legitimate sports. |
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| SharynS |
Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:27 pm
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2883 Location: the 'puter |
Quote: If you fight on the street you get arrested. Quote: If you fight in a legal ring, you participate in a sporting event Please, the law and it's function are by default, rooted in them. I'll grant you it's not easy to wrap our heads around the concept. If you accept law as all encompassing and flawless perhaps but to the best of my knowledge it's not. Quote: ...Any discussion of boxing for money falls by the wayside when it comes to
amateur boxing. Since the formation of CABA (Boxing Canada) there have been major improvements in safety standards... 
_________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
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| BZelley |
Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:25 am
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Joined: 05 Dec 2008 Posts: 26 Location: Canada |
Aside from all the mumbo jumbo regarding Siggy's off topic
rants about crime and non-ring activity, there is much to say about professional boxing's social role relating to various ethnic groups progress in boxing and society. In the USA we can follow the progress of the Irish and their early champions such as John L. Sullivan, Mike O'dowd, or Jack McAuliffe. Then there were those great J ewish boxers such as Benny Leonard and Barney Ross followed by Italian-Americans such as Tony Canzoneri, Rocky Kansas and others. |
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| BZelley |
Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:37 am
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Joined: 05 Dec 2008 Posts: 26 Location: Canada |
Another few lines from "Counterpunch for boxing"
as reported in the "Times-Colonist": "The sport of amateur boxing may not be the choice for middle-class boys of Greater Victoria, but for many disadvanged youth-in such places as East Los Angeles..._ amateur boxing provides an important door for many to escape from poverty and despair, street gangs and crime, and the artificial high of acceptance through drugs and alcohol. The values that may be obtained from amateur boxing include self-respect and pride, respect for authority, and respect and compassion for others." - Brian Zelley (1992) 
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| BZelley |
Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:07 am
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Joined: 05 Dec 2008 Posts: 26 Location: Canada |
Mulligan wrote: But Sig, we’re not talking about “out on the street.” Try and stay on track here. BZelley started the thread by specifying legalized boxing –pro or amateur. The fact is that under given state laws and conditions –boxing in a ring for money, or not for money, is legal.
Quote: …relevant rule which outright outlaws this archaic ritual… That’s a matter of subjectivity on your part. To you it’s an “archaic ritual.” To lots of other people it’s a public sport that is legally regulated like all other legitimate sports. Mulligan You scored a knockout punch with your fast and accurate understanding of the purpose of this thread I was inspired to add this thread after reading the details of Dick Findlay's problems. As I boxed in some of the same tournaments as Findlay, I was kind of shocked at his circumstances from 1988 to recent years. We can be proud of Findlay representing British Columbia and Canada in many International competitions, but how proud can we be of those responsible for the current circumstances 
I would hope that others would respect this thread with positive comments concerning the positive aspects of boxing. Some fine Canadians hve been involved in the sport such as the late great Tommy Douglas. I could mention many more high profile Canadians and Americans. Any poster, can bash an occupation or a leisure activity, but it takes class to praise others for their achievements. 
We can all try to follow that bright and positive path
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| SharynS |
Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 1:32 pm
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2883 Location: the 'puter |
Relax bz, no-one is bashing anyone, if you'd actually taken the time to read you would know that. But ftr: it's just as easy to bash an idea if you don't understand it and/or fear it.
It's a basic concept, we need to clear away the confusion before anything of human value can or will emerge. We believe violence is a sport, rape can be consensual. We make victims pay for crime. We think 5 yrs is penance for a life taken. We think a criminal wearing rags is more dangerous than a criminal in a suit...the list is long. And, because it's written in exact text in a fucking log book somewhere, we think that it must be so - that's all there is. Here's the thing, if we can get our heads out of our asses on at least a few conflicting messages, there's hope. I thought this was as good a thread as any to bring it up, fear not. _________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
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| atuuschaaw |
Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:33 pm
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Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 780 Location: an ahwangan |
Welcome to the fray BZ!
Quote: "The sport of amateur boxing may not be the choice for middle-class boys of Greater Victoria, but for many
disadvanged youth-in such places as East Los Angeles..._amateur boxing provides an important door for many to escape from poverty and despair, street gangs and crime, and the artificial high of acceptance through drugs and alcohol. The values that may be obtained from amateur boxing include self-respect and pride, respect for authority, and respect and compassion for others." - Brian Zelley (1992) Damn right! Although I think the gladiatorial tradition hosted the ultimate games in regards to spectator sports!
Pugilism has a long history here on Earth, and some say that Homer even mentions it in what some scholars believe to be the oldest work of literature in the Greek language...his renown Iliad. The importance of this sport can be seen throughout history. As far back as the 1st Century BC, ancient Roman boxers who were usually criminals and slaves, used the sport as a way out, and hoped to become champions and gain their freedom. So boxing gave them a way to avoid the horrors of the world into which they were unfortunately born. So I guess there hasn't been a lot of change over 2000 years...people continue to find themselves hopelessly entangled in poverty and all the inhuman dignity that goes along with that title. Even entire educational systems revolve around spectator sports and depend on the popularity of those sports rather than scholastic achievements for their funding. We seem to have come a long way without ever moving anywhere! I praise those achievements made by the athlete...the fighter. Although, I have much more praise for those who have somehow managed to use their intellect to fight their way out of hopelessness, rather than those who can put a good combination together and have the stamina to go 12 rounds! _________________ "Speaking the truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." George Orwell |
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| SharynS |
Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 3:02 pm
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2883 Location: the 'puter |
Bingo AT! Ooops - KO AT!
It's one thing to admire said persons because they honed a human skill to it's max and quite another to admire said persons for slaying the dragon to gain freedom. And in the name of a country no less. The way the "sporting" system is set they don't even warrant the credit. That's up for grabs with crumbs to the victim. Either way, it's a bit of a vicarious and self-serving ideology if you ask me. Not to mention it's laden in hypocrisy. There are some huge discrepancies in the country is behind you rhetoric, just ask Findlay. Slay the dragon and go free! We are so there eh. I know that some of these new ideas are way out there for you BZ and that's alright. What you have to remember is that this is the internet, expect it to happen. _________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
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| BZelley |
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:46 am
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Joined: 05 Dec 2008 Posts: 26 Location: Canada |
siggy wrote: Relax bz, no-one is bashing anyone, if you'd actually taken the time to read you would know that. But ftr: it's just as easy to bash an idea if you don't understand it and/or fear it.
Here's the thing, if we can get our heads out of our asses on at least a few conflicting messages, there's hope. I thought this was as good a thread as any to bring it up, fear not. Of course this is not a Sixties style love-in where folks are sitting around with flowers in their hair, smoking funny cigarettes and and dancing to "tiptoe through the tulips" and grooving to the same tunes. It is a boxing thread,where folks are expected to trade verbal blows in support of or support against some of the controversial issues be it safety in boxing, job opportunities in pro boxing, and available benefits such as health care and pensions. Concerning amateur boxing, most folks involved past and present are not looking for a pot full of gold at the end of the boxing rainbow. Only a select few will receive International fame and glory. But, for most that may receive a small amount of fame in their own hometown, nothing lasts forever. For those seeking fame and glory they should recall the words of the late singer songwriter PHIL OCHS from the Sixties: "IT ALL FADES SO QUICKLY, LIKE A SUNNY SUMMER'S DAY..."
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| BZelley |
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:06 am
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Joined: 05 Dec 2008 Posts: 26 Location: Canada |
Mulligan wrote: But Sig, we’re not talking about “out on the street.” Try and stay on track here. BZelley started the thread by specifying legalized boxing –pro or amateur. The fact is that under given state laws and conditions –boxing in a ring for money, or not for money, is legal.
Quote: …relevant rule which outright outlaws this archaic ritual… That’s a matter of subjectivity on your part. To you it’s an “archaic ritual.” To lots of other people it’s a public sport that is legally regulated like all other legitimate sports. Sometimes it might be smart to go beyond the basic aspects of boxing and consider the lessons that can be applied for your regular union worker on the shop floor. As a general rule, a boxer is expected to perform his or her best with a minimum of complications. However, there are some important safeguards that the boxer must count on such as his manager, trainers and ring cornerman. Likewise, your everyday worker relies on their union representatives from shop steward to union leaders to step forward in a timely fashion to correct any problems that the worker is facing on the job or dealing with the employers on key issues. Nothing is perfect, sometimes those responsible to protect the safety and best interest of the boxer fall short with the biggest loser being the boxer. Likewise, no shop steward or union boss is perfect, and from time-to-time they need to be educated or replaced if they fail to use all necessary steps to protect their brothers and sisters in critical situations. Be it boxers or union workers, when others are getting a slice of their pie, those representatives need to step-up to the stove and produce. 
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| SharynS |
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:30 pm
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2883 Location: the 'puter |
So boxing is like a hazardous job with rigorous safety standards? The following definition possibly helps explain where "sport" in said job is and/or where the misnomer possibly drew it's momentum. Quote: # An active pastime; recreation.
2. An object of mockery, jest, or play: treated our interests as sport. _________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
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| BZelley |
Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:36 am
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Joined: 05 Dec 2008 Posts: 26 Location: Canada |
[quote="siggy"]So boxing is like a hazardous job with rigorous safety standards? The following definition possibly helps explain where "sport" in said job is and/or where the misnomer possibly drew it's momentum.[quote]
Clearly, one must make a distinction between amateur boxing (a pastime or recreation) and pro boxing (a job). Of course a few folks over the years have reached the top in the recreation of amateur boxing and the long and winding road of professional boxing. Some obvious examples include Jackie Fields, Fidel LaBarba, Pascual Perez, Floyd Patterson, and Lennox Lewis.  Some roads lead to the top
while others lead to nowhere. The question is how far do we go down the road that we travel or does it matter, and should we just enjoy the ride
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| BZelley |
Posted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:40 am
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Joined: 05 Dec 2008 Posts: 26 Location: Canada |
Pick any big city and one can find violence on the street such as Chicago.
A few examples include 1886 Haymarket Riot, the 1917 Race Riots and the 1968 Democratic Convention and the noted Chicago Seven. Then of course there were those heated days of bootlegging and brawls during those Al Capone days. Then there was boxing. Chicago became the first when the Chicago Tribune hosted the first Golden Gloves tournament in 1926. New York quickly followed in 1927 and the rest is history. In the sometimes brutal sport of professional boxing, Chicago was the site of controversy and great fights. Take the case when Gene Tunney shocked the world with his famous victory over Jack (the Manassa Mauler) Dempsey in 1925. Fast forward to 1947, and it was the second of the three middleweight wars between Tony (Man of Steel) Zale and New York's Rocky Graziano (noted for the movie "Somebody Up There Likes Me" when Graziano played by Paul Newman won the title in Chicago in 1947). Chicago also was the site of two great Sugar Ray Robinson middleweight wars when he stopped Gene Fullmer at the Chicago Stadium in 1957 and outpointed the warrior Carmen Basilio in 1958. And who could forget the shocker when Charles (Sonny) Liston stopped two time heavyweight champion Floyd Patterson in one round at Chicago's Comisky Park in 1962. Fast forward to 2008, and there has been some interesting Politics in Chicago wuth the election of Barack Obama. If one was to select one boxer to compare to the impact of Obama around the world, the first and best likely candidate would be Muhammed Ali (aka Cassius Clay). |
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| BZelley |
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:33 am
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Joined: 05 Dec 2008 Posts: 26 Location: Canada |
AS a follow-up, a thread as been added in the
Amateur & Professional Boxing group site at Facebook. with a link to :The Dick Findlay Story" |
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| SharynS |
Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:57 am
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Joined: 28 Jan 2006 Posts: 2883 Location: the 'puter |
Very cool BZ, did you do that?
To save a wild FB search, here's the FB Am and pro boxing link. _________________ Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself. - Salman Rushdie |
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