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It's The Economy Stupid!

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Pearson	Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 5:19 am
Joined: 03 Feb 2006 Posts: 1417 Location: Sun City AZ	On another website i play around on, there was a thread where the posters on the right have taken to quoting Rush Limbaugh and have been trying to pass the financial crisis on to none other than Bill Clinton. It evolved into a bit of ugly back and forth. Rather than engage in the silliness, i tried to take the high road and scratched out the following... It’s The Economy Stupid! In recent threads we’ve seen two posters trying to pass the recent economic collapse off on former president Bill Clinton. If it wasn’t so pathetic, it would be laughable. Hell, since the day George Bush has taken office Limbaugh and his ardent followers have tried passing blame as frequently as our own Wdb passes gas. While it is true the price of Pork Bellies isn’t Bush’s fault personally, in the end the one fact that ultimately befalls every president is that their fate is directly tied to the state of the economy. Hence the birth of the sign that hung in Clinton’s campaign office when he ran against Bush Sr in 1992. The genius behind the saying was James Carville; he understood that pocket book issues are what drives voters. While Bush the senior had great success in foreign policy matters, the economy sucked. New tax increases and failed promises were his downfall and Carville made sure no one forgot about it. It wasn’t the first time presidents have been brought down by failed economic policies. Jimmy Carter was an all around nice guy but who can forget the interest rates the country was choking on while he was in office? And one can certainly question Nixon’s wage and price controls, though he had his own demons well beyond that. In any event, it is truly fascinating to see our friends on the right try and downplay what is happening in the United States as we approach election day 2008. Headlines across the nation have compared the impending bailout and financial woes to be potentially what the country was looking at in 1929. Sadly, it goes well beyond just the collapse of financial institutions. The national debt is at an all-time high (and growing by the second). Home foreclosures, mortgages and bankruptcies are higher than anytime in recent history. Housing starts are at their lowest point in nearly 20 years. Real wages are shrinking, middle class jobs are evaporating and the numbers of those without health care are on the rise. There are hordes of seniors who say they will never be able to afford to retire. The cost of the war is escalating with no end in sight. It’s not a pretty time for working men and women. Now I understand why Bush’s supporters would try and deflect the criticism that he is getting, but when you are president one becomes accountable. Unfortunately it is about outcomes. I know, you’d all like to just let the good old Texan be able to stand atop what was left of the Twin Towers and proclaim he would hunt bin Laden to the ends of the earth; or to be able to get in full dress battle gear on the deck of a battle ship and proclaim victory in Iraq (even though another 3000 men and women have died since then) but being president is about more than that. Though now that I think about it, maybe we should hold him accountable for those things as well. Back on point; if it’s not George’s fault after his running the country for the last eight years, how the hell is it Clinton’s? Don’t bother answering, it’s rhetorical. The current president (and his party) has to accept the good with the bad...and in this case there is lots of bad. Although, I will give McCain and his handlers credit for having the sense to distance themselves from Bush et al (especially his oil and pharmaceutical buddies who bought and paid for the last two elections). A final thought: I absolutely believe this country needs a shift in direction. Workers, their families and their future need become important again. We’ve watched as those having it all have gotten even more. The tax breaks Bush begged for and got have done nothing to turn the economy around. The Keynsian Theory of Economics may have worked back in the days when companies invested in their country and actually used tax cuts and less government intervention to stimulate the economy, but in today’s global business model and multi-national corporations, it’s a dead end road. The only loyalty is to the almighty dollar. Electing a new president should be about changing the course we have been on. Obama is the one who would do that. It should still be the economy stupid...the only real question is; is the United States ready for a black man to be president? And, if he is elected, will he live to be sworn in? _________________ If we don't do it, who will?
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wm pasz	Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:38 pm
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto	Who's responsible for the financial nightmare? This article from dailykos sheds a lot of light. How many times are people going to get raped by the hidden hands of the marketplace before they relegate these crooks and their fan clubs to the scrap heap of history? _________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X
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rogead	Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 6:07 pm
Joined: 11 Feb 2006 Posts: 412	One of the few in Washington who is willing to vehemently oppose this public underwriting of personal greed is Vermont senator Bernie Sanders. His plan includes a ten percent surcharge on individuals making over $500,000.00 a year. http://www.sanders.senate.gov/news/record.cfm?id=303317
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Elvis	Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:00 pm
Joined: 01 Feb 2006 Posts: 661 Location: Toronto	wm pasz wrote: Who's responsible for the financial nightmare? This article from dailykos sheds a lot of light. How many times are people going to get raped by the hidden hands of the marketplace before they relegate these crooks and their fan clubs to the scrap heap of history? Wanda, you finally gave me a smile. Interesting point of view. I'll just poke a hole in it with one line that the author wrote... Quote: They quickly worked out how to game the system. If you know the 'system' and know the guys that create the 'system', you're set. I recently spoke to a lawyer about how an easily solved issue can be complicated with tons of rules, jargon and argument... creating more work and more 'jobs' for many not originally connected to whatever the issue was in the first place. Sure, at the core it remains a simple issue, but why even bother looking at it from that angle? More layers!! More layers!! Yes, I deleted the "w" from the word on purpose. Here's another 'fuck the greed' point of view... http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/23/paul.bailout/index.html Keep it simple. It's only the economy. _________________ Henri Ducard: Your compassion is a weakness your enemies will not share. Bruce Wayne: That's why it's so important. It separates us from them.
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SFway	Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:52 am
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 573	Hell, things must really be bad...just got an email from ANDY STERN urging a "No" vote on the Bush Administration's plan for Wall Street. This from "Mr. Corporate Partnership". Looks like rats deserting a sinking ship.
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Elvis	Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:07 pm
Joined: 01 Feb 2006 Posts: 661 Location: Toronto	Shocking, simple ideas... http://edition.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayoflife/09/24/container.homes.ap/index.html ...sometimes work. _________________ Henri Ducard: Your compassion is a weakness your enemies will not share. Bruce Wayne: That's why it's so important. It separates us from them.
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wm pasz	Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:45 pm
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto	sfw, Andy senses the rage of the people and doesn't want to get his ass kicked along with his corporate pals. Very interesting times in the US these days. I've been thinking that if there ever was a time to rethink the whole economic model this would be it. How about taking that $700 billion and spending it on the people instead? Hey, the people are actually talking about that. Who would have thought we'd live to see it! _________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X
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Pearson	Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:04 pm
Joined: 03 Feb 2006 Posts: 1417 Location: Sun City AZ	I guess the good news about the bailout is it has people talking and thinking in ways they never have before. My wife got this email from a friend in Washington State and while i didn't check the math, it is a fascinating idea as to how to solve the problems in whole different way: I'm against the $85,000,000,000.00 bailout of AIG. Instead, I'm in favor of giving $85,000,000,000 to America in a "We Deserve It Dividend." To make the math simple, let's assume there are 200,000,000 bonafide U.S. Citizens 18+. Our population is about 301,000,000 +/- counting every man, woman and child. So 200,000,000 might be a fair stab at adults 18 and up...So divide 200 million adults 18+ into $85 billon that equals $425,000.00. My plan is to give $425,000 to every person 18+ as a "We Deserve It Dividend." Of course, it would NOT be tax free. So let's assume a tax rate of 30%. Every individual 18+ has to pay $127,500.00 in taxes. That sends $25,500,000,000 right back to Uncle Sam. But it means that every adult 18+ has $297,500.00 in their pocket. A husband and wife has $595,000.00. What would you do with $297,500.00 to $595,000.00 in your family? * Pay off your mortgage - housing crisis solved. * Repay college loans - what a great boost to new grads. * Put away money for college - it'll be there. * Save in a bank - create money to loan to entrepreneurs. * Buy a new car - create jobs. * Invest in the market - capital drives growth. * Pay for your parent's medical insurance - health care improves * Enable Deadbeat Dads to come clean - or else * Enable those with back taxes to finally pay them Remember this is for every adult U S Citizen 18+, including the folks who lost their jobs at Lehman Brothers and every other company. that is cutting back. And of course, for those serving in our Armed Forces. If we're going to re-distribute wealth let's really do it...instead of trickling out a puny $1000.00 ( "vote buy" ) economic incentive that is being proposed by one of our candidates for President. If we're going to do an $85 billion bailout, let's bail out every adult US Citizen 18+! I think Wm p is on to something as well. This giddiness the free marketers have been jumping up and down about may well have run its course. I'm hearing friends who are hard core republicans complaining about the pay days the corporatists' have been taking as these companies where crumbling around them. If there were only a way to rally folks en masse without regard to their political persuasion we may well be able to unseat an ideology that has run its course. _________________ If we don't do it, who will?
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wm pasz	Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:51 pm
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto	What a great idea! Hey, I have an evil idea: Why don't we cut and paste the "We Deserve It Dividend" on as many blogs and other online discussion boards as we can between now and the election. Let's see if it catches fire. Who's in? _________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X
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exraleys	Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:54 pm
Joined: 21 Mar 2006 Posts: 193	Bill You need to check the math. It is $425 dollars. I think the fundamental problem is that AIG which basically has had it's common stockholders wiped out by the mispricing of their own RISK. That said, AIG has about 1 Trillion dollars in Assets and Liabilities which needed to be protected. The Taxpaper is now the owner of this company. I don't like what is going on but I think we really have no choice. We have been put in this place by both sides of the isle and and more than one sitting president. Let us just say this has been along time coming. And I cannot exempt the blame of the blue collar worker and the working poor, who threw out caution and falsely believed that home prices go to the moon and some other schmuck will buy at a higher price. And to the MBA of Wallstreet who believe that they deserve what they get and who most likely have never worked in any type of retail. Tulip mainia, anyone. The markets are not functioning correctly, I am not referring to the stock market either. The Treasury market has gone insane with buyers willing to pay to have Uncle Sam hold his money. Without credit, this economy or any other economy would not function. Without the lender knowing that he can get back his money,forget about interest (return) he will not lend. It the same as the employee who purchases a home because he knows he will have a job tomorrow and he is confident he will pay it back. If I were to buy my house today, I would need an income of over $125,000 and that is with a 20% down payment. Yet , I know of employees in retail that borrowed money with no money down to purchase a home that was valued more than the value of my home at today's price. This is coming from a clerk that maybe makes $40,000 per year.It is no wonder the average borrower is walking away from mortgage. And there lies the problem, the buyers walking away from mortgages will be paying a huge price. They may not be able to get any kind of credit for many years. The sad fact is those that did the right thing, went to work , saved and invested and paid their taxes every April 15 gets the high hard one. Sad
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John A. Joslin	Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:01 am
Joined: 02 Apr 2006 Posts: 83 Location: Detroit, Michigan U.S.A. IBEW #58	It certainly is true that U.S. citizens have been relentlessly chastised over the past 18 months or so for failing to read the "fine print" contained in their sub-prime mortgage agreements. In their greedy haste to try to live in a house rather than a dank, bug-ridden hovel more appropriate to their diminishing means they have fallen prey in record numbers to the fast talking financial representatives of "democratic Capitalism" aka "the finest system there is" ( - Prez G.Bush ), blah, blah, etc. . Every once in a great while an earnest attempt is made to set the sordid record straight... in this case , the probable criminal record being authored by the current U.S. Sec'y of the Treasury , Henry"Hank the Hustler"Paulson.
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wm pasz	Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:45 am
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 1219 Location: Toronto	ex-r, the market isn't working properly you say? Here's a bulletin. The market hasn't worked properly - ever. Boom and bust cycles have happened with great regularity since the mid 1800's. The only differences being the extent of the suffering inflicted on a bewildered population. The reality is that the market you speak of isn't really a market. You/we don't live in a capitalist democracy we live in a corporatist kleptocracy. The mysterious, self-regulating, self-correcting, equilibrium-seeking market has never existed. The fact that so many people believe it does is a testament to the brainwashing feats of the corporatists and their government puppets. Our ancestors fell for this voodoo many generations ago because they were unable to understand what was happening to them. That we continue to believe this nonsense 150 years later, despite a mountain of evidence to the contrary, makes me wonder at times if there's any hope for us. It's mindboggling that people actually believe that all the supposed debt is even real money (it's not). And even more remarkable that, after having their pockets picked by the kleptocrats, they may be prepared to swallow $700 billion of their real dollars are going to flow into the thieves' pockets. Take my word for it. If this bailout goes through (even with the modest controls that are being proposed by nervous lawmakers) nothing is going to change. In a year or two, there will more job losses, foreclosures and poverty and all the soothsayers and bullshit artists will be wringing their hands about how the market still hasn't corrected itself and even more pain and suffering must be inflicted (it seems sort of like the modern day equivalent of the human sacrifice - only thousands of humans are sacrificed daily). The corporatist henchmen are working overtime now to bamboozle the public with their fearmongering and dire predictions. It's somewhat heartening to see that, as I write this, there is still no deal. The corpo bastards must be shitting themselves. But they'll keep trying and, as long as people continue to believe this market voodoo, they'll keep winning. _________________ Time is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. Truth is on the side of the oppressed today, it's against the oppressor. You don't need anything else. - Malcolm X
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atuuschaaw	Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:16 am
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 781 Location: an ahwangan	Quote: Take my word for it. If this bailout goes through (even with the modest controls that are being proposed by nervous lawmakers) nothing is going to change. Dead on track as usual wm! I think somebody in Washington is getting worried that a little upheaval might be in store for our future. Are we really getting close to the R-evolution? I was just reading today that U.S. troops are to begin training for domestic unrest on October 1st. I've been roaming around the Public Markup site for a short while, as well as the Sunlight Foundation's site. I've found the premise and the information to be very resourceful. Their projects are tantalizing! As we all know, transparency is the key, and once we have that, accountability will follow. Quote: And there lies the problem, the buyers walking away from mortgages will be paying a huge price. They may not be able to get any kind of credit for many years. In the words of Christopher Ketcham's grandfather: Quote: Cash up, cash forward. Nothing for the bankers. Fuck the bankers, fuck the loan-artists, fuck those who will tell you there’s a deal on the horizon as long as you sleep. Sunlight is the best of disinfectants! _________________ "Speaking the truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." George Orwell
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Elvis	Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 3:53 am
Joined: 01 Feb 2006 Posts: 661 Location: Toronto	atuuschaaw wrote: Dead on track as usual wm! I think somebody in Washington is getting worried that a little upheaval might be in store for our future. Are we really getting close to the R-evolution? I was just reading today that U.S. troops are to begin training for domestic unrest on October 1st. I just sat down to rant on this subject using the same link and you beat me to it! This bullshit bailout is going to happen. No doubt about it. But it won't happen right away. And there will be a victory of sorts (promises of more oversight and public assurance). My sense is the media will be played for a month and then the 'good news' will be delivered/released around the October 1rst quiet implementation of the next 'phase'. Patriot act. Check. Total control of people's money and homes. Check. Election sabotage. Check. Seeds of Martial Law. Check. Next up... stolen election (The last one was just practice). See ya in the camps!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJBxdRIQx7Y Quote: Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency. http://www.infowars.com/?p=4788 Oh ya... reserve your coffin too! Only 500,000 to a million ordered (per state is the rumour) by those cheap FEMA bastard so far (I heard they can fit three people though). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGa_sdyRS7Q _________________ Henri Ducard: Your compassion is a weakness your enemies will not share. Bruce Wayne: That's why it's so important. It separates us from them.
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the doc	Posted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 2:16 pm
Joined: 27 Sep 2006 Posts: 121	It is sad what is going on in the States, but it will roll over into Canada for sure. We live in a global economy and as such it will get us in the end. The main problem in the States is the fat cats that have been doing there thing for so long and making big bucks off the little people. The politicions have given them a free hand to rape at will and they have done well. Their pockets are lined and you can bet they won't be hurting like the little guy. It is getting really close in time where the people will just say enough is enough and demand retribution. Then and only then will things equal out. The sad part is the AMERICAN DREAM NEVER WAS. As long as people who can't afford to buy houses, get them, and it goes on and on, this will happen over and over. The total US economy is sick and going to tumble down big time, and nobody can fix it no matter what they say. The UNITED STATES is BANKRUPT and they won't admit it, but they just go on printing money like drunken soldiers. I feel for the everyday person as they just go to work and hope things will get better, and the people in the Government keep lying to them. The end of the States as a big power is gone they just have not found out yet.
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